Concealed Carry restrictions

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Wolverine, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    I am not sure about other people respective states, however Colorado seems to have very loose restrictions concerning concealed carry permit licensing. Nothing more than an afternoon in a classroom is required, live fire isn't even required.

    This seems to be a bit irresponsible to allow people to carry firearms, in public, without demonstrating a proficiency in their weapon. Unless someone is proficient with their weapon, they flat out should not carry it. Period.

    Case in point, I attended a NRA sponsored class for my CCW class two years ago. Overall, an excellent class that exceeded the minimum state requirements, including a live fire with basic techniques and tactics.

    However, accuracy was not a requirement. One particular man concerned me, a gun novice who was unaware of the need to clean a new gun before firing it.... his first gun, first time he had really shot. We begin shooting, man size silhouette targets at 3 and 5 yards. My group with slow fire, double taps, and rapid fire, was about 8", all within the white pie plate we used to represent center of mass. The man that I am referring to made no such group, had a difficult time handling his weapon, and peppered the entire target at those ranges..... I can put 13rds. in a pie plate at 25yds.... 3 and 5 yards is an easy as pie.....

    He received his certificate and was given the authority to pursue his CCW permit.

    This is concerning that someone who was unable to demonstrate nothing more than mediocre accuracy is certified to carry a concealed weapon in public. The state of Colorado ought to enhance the requirements a bit and requirement a bit more marksmanship and proficiency in handling weapons. If you are going to carry a weapon, you should know how to use it. And use it reasonable well. My brother is just as bad, carries a 9mm Sig P250 and can't hit the broad side of a barn. Meh!

    Sounds reasonable? Just a random thought for the morning.
     
  2. Hate_bs

    Hate_bs New Member

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    If this was such a big problem for you,then why didn't you do something about it?

    Did you offer to train him? Did you offer body guard services until he could properly defend himself?

    Or? Did you just observe and do nothing?

    You have no authority over his behavior, but you can do something about your own behavior.
     
  3. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Is there a real problem? Are CCW holders shooting the wrong person? Or is this a theoretical problem?
     
  4. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Whether or not CCW holders are accidentally shooting others is irrelevant. The very fact that no one is required to demonstrate competency is a huge issue in and of itself.

    So.... the answer to incompetent shooters is to offer a bodyguard service?

    Ridiculous.
     
  5. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Of course it's relevant. If it's not a problem, why make a law to fix the non-problem?
     
  6. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Incompetent shooters, carrying loaded firearms in public, is not by definition a "non-problem".
     
  7. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    It is a non-problem if nobody is getting hurt by it. It it were such a pressing problem, there would be people getting shot left and right by incompetent CCW holders. It just isn't happening. It's a a non-problem. I understand your point, but honestly, the guys like you had in your class aren't carrying on a daily basis. If they were, they would be serious enough about it to learn to shoot.
     
  8. Hate_bs

    Hate_bs New Member

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    If you didn't do anything about it, then is it really a problem?
     
  9. Hate_bs

    Hate_bs New Member

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    Yes it is not a problem. If you obviously were not worried about it to do somethig about it then nothing needs to be done.
     
  10. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Hmmmm..... not necessarily. First off, so few crimes are prevented by firing a CCW weapons that the problem may not make itself apparent. That does not however lessen the issue of incompetent people carrying weapons in public.

    As for the last bit, that really doesn't mean much. Whether or not we may think they carry a weapon X% of the time is meaningless, the issue is that they be incompetent and still carry a deadly weapon.
     
  11. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    I am not capable of attending every CCW class in the state, nor am I capable of training every person who is unable to hit the broadside of a barn. Your point is moot because it does not address the problem, nor it is practical in any sense of the word.

    It is much easier to amend the CCW law to include an item for handgun proficiency than it is for a single person to somehow help every incompetent shooter in the state. It is a silly argument.
     
  12. Barry Badrinath

    Barry Badrinath New Member

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    As is your's, you have not demonstrated that this is a problem,( facts and figures to suggest unqualified persons obtaining a CCW pose a danger to the public) other than you thinking it is.

    As far as practical goes, how practical would it be to get a few bureaucrats to come up with a standard for firearm competency?

    We do not need any more laws that infringe on our right to carry...
     
  13. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    Well, CCW are NOT for your information accidentally shooting other people.
     
  14. Hate_bs

    Hate_bs New Member

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    It bothers you but it doesn't seem to bother th government. Yet you want the government to fix it?
     
  15. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    My god this thread is the very reason why I am no longer associate myself with conservatives.

    1. Just because no one has died does not make it a non-issue. The very fact that people can carry a concealed weapon, in public, without demonstrating any proficiency (even demonstrating a blatant lack of proficiency) is a huge issue. If you do not see this, you are blind. The very nature of loose CCW restrictions destroys the argument of CCW holders being responsible gun owners.

    2. You do not need to wait until someone dies to fix a problem. You can much more easily fix a problem, and slightly increase the restrictions before something bad happens. A slow thought out process will benefit CCW holders more than a quick knee jerk reaction to a death.

    3. You do not have a right to carry a loaded firearm in public. There is a reason why it is licensed. Much like drivers licenses (however, much less restrictive).

    4. Avoid using fallacies as arguments.
     
  16. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    1. With the thousands of CCW holders out there, it's not a problem. Yes, it's theoretically one, but nobody is getting hurt. If there is no added real safety by your added restrictions, why add them? Basically, you are advocating a solution to a theoretical problem, not an actual one.

    Also, even requiring a person to show proficiency doesn't guarantee that the person maintains the proficiency? Are you going to require annual recerts? It also doesn't guarantee that the person knows how to use a new gun safely.

    2. It just isn't happening. While you think this is a major problem, it's just not one. CCW holders are generally much more cautious than the general public.

    3. True.

    4. What fallacies are being used?
     
  17. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    It is silly to wait until someone gets hurt to require proficiency in weapons that are carried in public.

    In fact, it is a great way to bring about much tighter restrictions in a knee jerk reaction by law makers.
     
  18. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    What kind of accuracy at what range would you require? How often would CCW holders have to prove it?
     
  19. Hate_bs

    Hate_bs New Member

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    You saw a problem and did nothing about it.

    That is equal to a liberal seeing a homeless man, walking away, then expecting the government to do something about it.
     
  20. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    No more than police officers.

    With every renewal.
     
  21. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    If it didn't make sense the first time, why would you repeat the same ridiculous request?
     
  22. Patriot911

    Patriot911 New Member Past Donor

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    Actually, here in Colorado as well as a number of other states, you can carry a firearm without a license.... it just can't be concealed. No license. No class. Nothing other than ostensibly being able to pass a background check when purchasing the firearm.

    The CCW class I took was pretty much a joke for me since I've been shooting pretty much all my life. Was it, in my opinion, a good enough class to truly teach someone not only about the firearm and how to shoot it, but also the legal aspects of owning/carrying a firearm? Not even close, even for someone like me.

    The legal aspects of owning/carrying a firearm are like any other governmentally regulated aspect of our lives; full of loopholes, gotchas, little known technicalities, and unknowns. The biggest unknown is that ANY time you decide you need to use or even draw your weapon and the government finds out about it, you come under the scrutiny of the DA's office which then decides whether or not you've broken any laws or were justified in doing what you did. The ONLY time I would ever even CONSIDER using my weapon is if it is truly a matter of life and death.

    Should the CCW laws be looked at? Not really in my opinion. Very few people, even those with CCW licenses, carry. Those like Wolverine describes probably will never carry. Now, if we saw numerous examples of people being irresposible with their firearms while out in public and while they are concealed, I would push for more required training. Since it has been decades since CCW licenses have become more mainstream (Florida enacted their CCW laws in 1987), if irresponsible, untrained carriers were truly an issue, shouldn't we have seen examples by now?

    The far larger threat, IMHO, are the people who have a gun at home for whatever purpose and are not responsible with their firearm. I have a gun at home I use for defense. I also have a five year old granddaughter who LOVES to get into things. If she comes over, the gun goes in the safe and the safe gets locked. No exceptions.

    So, I hate it when someone whines about a problem like I just did without giving a reasonable solution to the problem. What is my solution? Education! Not just education of the gun owner and what his/her responsibilities are, but of any person living where a gun is accessible even if they hate guns. Children? ESPECIALLY children!

    People who have never been around firearms have only TV and movies to rely on for how things really are with guns. Just taking people out to show them what guns are really like solves that problem quickly and effectively. Kids learn that firearms are NOT toys and that they are very violent and VERY different from what they see on TV and in movies.

    So why educate people who hate guns? Because ignorance is far more dangerous than a few minutes spent getting educated. My step-daughter was vehemently anti gun even though she had never fired one or been around one being fired. She was also deathly afraid of just being in the same room with a gun. She didn't want to be educated since she didn't see any value in it. Wrong attitude! If you don't know how to handle a gun, what are you going to do if you find yourself in a situation with a gun? She understood this common sense fact and I trained her how to handle / inspect / load and unload a firearm. She now enjoys going to the range occasionally and shooting .22s.

    This isn't or shouldn't be a liberal / conservative issue. The fact is guns are a part of life in America. If we are going to have guns in our lives, we should be responsible and educate ourselves and everyone we can. We shouldn't be ordered by the government to be responsible.
     
  23. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    The only way to ensure uniform education is by government regulations.

    It odes not matter if the shooter I described may or may not carry a gun regularly, the issue is that he can. With the power, comes responsibility, and there is no one enforces the need to adhere to that responsibility through education.

    People may or may not choose to educate themselves about guns, and sadly, that does not prevent someone who does not know how to shoot straight from carrying a firearm. That sad reality makes us all look bad and is an venue for far tighter restrictions and the dismissal of any claim that CCW holders are all responsible gun owners (especially considering live fire is not a requirement). There is no test to ensure that they are responsible.

    I am not a big fan of open carry (I view it as counter productive) so that was excluded from my op....
     
  24. Hate_bs

    Hate_bs New Member

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    You are capable of training the one man you walked away from.
     
  25. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What sort of slimy cowards would creep about the world hiding their popguns under their dresses? What a load of crummy assassins!
     

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