Falklands war 2012.

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by antileftwinger, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    If there was another Falklands war in 1 weeks time, which nations would be in the war, and who would win?
     
  2. mepal1

    mepal1 New Member

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    Nations involved:- Argentina & UK

    Victor:- UK

    That was really an easy question to answer! :)
     
  3. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    How would they accomplish this without any naval air power?
     
  4. unclebob

    unclebob New Member

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    AA weapons on naval fleet, 4+ EF's on the Islands and the use of aerial refueling to get more planes there if need be. None of their aircraft would touch the Eurofighter, which would just keep on killing.

    ... I am sure the harriers will be recommissioned surprisingly quickly, too.

    The Uk is 2/3 generations ahead in terms of technology and significantly further ahead then that in terms of ability.
     
  5. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    Who would be involved? Definately the UK and Argentina.

    Possibly other EU countries, how many depends on whether or not britain invokes the mutual defense clauses of the Lisbon treaty and can get unanimous aproval from the European Council and that could be tricky.

    You don't actually think that their is going to be another war over the Falklands?
     
  6. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    I am fairly sure they have already been flogged.
     
  7. unclebob

    unclebob New Member

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    I'm not sure, to be honest. Don't think we would need them anyway, but it would be nice.

    Regardless, I don't see it happening...
     
  8. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    AA weapons don't offer strike capability. The best defense against aircraft has always been other aircraft. What's an EF? The 4 Eurofighters on the Falkands certainly outmatch the Argentinian aircraft....but what if 30 of them attack at once? What if they attack them while they're on the ground? I'm not neccessarily disagreeing with you, I just think you're a bit over confident. Britain recently gutted its power projection capabilties, and considering their large struggles in the first war, I don't think its as easy as you make it out to be.

    It would also be interesting to see if the U.S. would get involved this time around. The timely arrival of a carrier strike group from the 2nd or 3rd fleet would pretty much be game over for Argentina.
     
  9. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    European countries aren't exactly known for their solidarity in committing to conflicts.....at least quickly. Even half of the countries voting in favor of the intervention in Libya didn't send any forces.
     
  10. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    hence "that could be tricky"

    Half the countries being Bosnia Herzegovina (non eu and hence outside the lisbon treaty) and Portugal ?

    While the other half France and the UK did most of the strikes?
     
  11. mepal1

    mepal1 New Member

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    All this Argie talk from their current goverment is just sabre rattling!

    They have kept relatively quiet for the last 30 years.

    Is it me or do most people here think its more than a coincidence that the Argies are upset now, because a shed load of oil has been discovered around the Falklands by the British.

    Does anyone really think Argentina wants a cold, bleedin miserable, sheep inhabited island for any other reason.............of course not!

    I read this week that the US has offered the UK a substancial amont of money to help get the oil out of the sea bed around the Falklands!
     
  12. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    I think the French would help the UK, that's it.

    Britain now has a much better ability to project air power in the south Atlantic now, with mid air refueling, which we didn't have without the US the first time around.

    Do you think Brazil would try it's hand and join Argentina in a war, or just do what it did last time to help Argentina?
     
  13. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    Yes, and because of that news I made £400, off my 10 shares the Rockhopper.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    If it happened right now?

    Argentina.

    If there is anything that they learned since last time, it is the power of Land Based Air Power against an incomming navy that seriously lacks Naval Air Power.

    Face it, last time around, Argentina might have lost, but they gave the UK a serious spanking. And their Air Froce is nothing to sneeze at.

    The Argentine Air Force has some really good aircraft. And all are far better then what the UK would have to use on it's carriers (the Harrier, give me a break).

    8 Mirage III (used for intercepter missions)
    15 IAI Nesher (based on the Mirage 5, did the most attacks in the last war)
    7 Mirage 5
    34 A-4 Fightinghawk (US made modern rebuild of the old A-4 Skyhawk)
    18 IA-63 Pampa (Fighter/Trainer based on the Dassault Alpha Jet, primarily designed as a trainer, but with combat capabilities)

    And another lessen they learned is the importance of missiles. They make their own anti-ship missile now, the AS-25K. And they still buy some of the top of the line missiles available on the open market, including the newest Exocet missiles.

    And they have probably the most active navy in South America. They are a frequent operations partner with many nations, including the US, Italy, Spain, France, and many other nations. And their submarines (2 German, built in 1984, 1 German, overhauled in 2005) are considered by many to be the best in South America.

    If anything, Argentina learned a valuable lesson last time. They would use their stand-off weapons to maximum capability, and use their anti-ship missiles as soon as possible.

    And while small, most of their ships are considerably newer then the UK counterparts. Their corvettes date from the late 1970's for one class, and the mid 1980's for the other. And their destroyers all date to the mid 1980's.

    This is not the Argentine Navy of the Falklands era, made up primarily of WWII era US surplus.

    And as strange as it may sound to some, the Comando de Aviación Naval Argentina (Argentine Naval Aviation) still exists. Even though they sold their carrier a decade ago, they still maintain and train their Naval Aviation assets. First with Brazil, and currently with the US Navy. And those are still more aviation assets that could be used.

    11 Dassault Super Etendard (this is the aircraft that sank the Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor)
    5 P-3 Orions (ASW, they are fitting them to carry Exocet missiles)
    3 S-2 Trackers (ASW, also refitted to carry Exocet missiles)

    Thinking that a Falklands War II would simply be a repeat of Falklands War I would be a mistake. And I would bet that the lessons Argentina learned last time about the use of anti-ship missiles would be used this time to strike back at much longer ranges.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Mid-air refueling for the kind of distances you are talking about is really not very good use of the air power. That might be good if you are bringing in bombers against a land target, but this would be an absolute waste in attacks against ships.

    When you consider the turn-around time of land based aircraft going round trip from the UK to the South Atlantic, you are talking about a tremendous strain on the air crew. And unlike the B-1/B-2 of the US, they can't rotate for rest during the flight. The UK only has fighters, so the crews will arrive in the theatre after 4-6 hours of flight time, with lowered reflexes and response time. Then still do an attack and fly back to the UK.

    And how are you going to get the refuelers down there? The UK currently has 20 of them, none of which has the capability to refuel in flight itself. So you are going to have to find some kind of friendly airport down there for the aircraft themselves to be refueled.

    And if Argentina was smart, they would simply ignore the incomming fighters and attack the fuelers. They are sitting ducks to most fighters. And taking them out would entirely ruin the day of the RAF.
     
  16. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    Argentina has yet to replace the 70ish planes of all types lost in the 1st war. If Sea Harriers could do that to them then, what chance do the same Argentine units have against the four Typhoon/Eurofighters, whose pilots may well have recent battle experience?
     
  17. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

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    4 fighters can't stay in the air forever. They are extremely vulnerable while on the ground. 4 fighters into enough to maintain a CAP.
     
  18. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    Thank, it's a 18 hour flight from the UK to the Falklands, even in a Eurofighter. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP_SA80DIAA"]Typhoons begin defence of Falklands' airspace - YouTube[/ame]

    I wasn't thinking about flying from the UK, but Ascension island, cutting the flight time by 60%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ascension_Island

    I was also nothing think of flying aircraft into fight, but to reinforce the Falklands air base at Mount Pleasent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Mount_Pleasant

    We know the Eurofight is the better aircraft, but if a mission was to attack enemy ships, would you use the Tornado or the Eurofighter? The RAF will need to use both as we don't have enough Eurofighters.

    Also would tanks, 105 mm guns or Apache attack helicopters be of any use? To support the 1,100 ground troops from Britain and the 150 Falkland island defence force.
     
  19. SFJEFF

    SFJEFF New Member

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    I would recommend that the Falklands not attack Argentina.
     
  20. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    I do think your over rating the Argentine navy, but only by 5-10%. The Type 23 Frigate would probably outclasses the Argentina class of Frigates, and it is much younger, and HMS clyde would be a match for some of the Argentina corvette classes. None of the Argentina Submarines are a match for the British nuclear submarines, if Britain needed to they could fly Harriers off HMS Ocean, they have kept some for just the purpose, which would match any Argentine threat.

    The British have also learned the lessions from 1982, this time the British have a large force on the Falklands, air and naval bases along with RADAR stations, and ground to air starstreak missiles. This for the UK wouldn't be a naval war, but an air and ground war. So it would be fought on British terms. Still Argentina doesn't have the ground units Britain has, and that will be what it comes down to in the UK's view. If Argentina can't take the Mount Pleasent base, in the first 48 hours, they lost, unless Brazil does what it did last time, to British jets from Ascension. And if they do, there will be a big problem not just for Britain, but also Brazil.
     
  21. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    Who said they were going to? I think if Argentina attacks again and loses the UK should force Argentina to cut it's militaries ability to project power, but the UK should never invade.
     
  22. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Didn't Britain receive significant logistical support from the US in the last Falklands fight? Does any one believe America would repeat that assistance?
     
  23. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    Yes we did. And I don't think the UK would need any US assistance, we have been planning for another attack for 25 years, and we are ready for it. Also the EU is much more coherent than 30 years ago, and would support the UK in every way needed.
     
  24. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    You've been planning for this for twenty five years? Is that why you don't have any aircraft carriers? F-35s won't arrive for a very long time.

    As far as EU support is concerned, they will be pilloried as a bunch of colonialists if they support Britain. They are concerned with trade, not the reacquisition of colonial possessions.

    The very first thing that happens in the event of a reengagement is that the Falklands airfields will be taken out. That's a low tech operation.

    How many troops does Britain have on the Falklands? How good is coastal defense against small units that show up unannounced on a moonless night with mortars to crater the airfields?
     
  25. antileftwinger

    antileftwinger Banned

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    We don't plan a full naval operation, that only happens if the Falklands are taken again. So carriers aren't important.

    The British have enough starstreak systems on the Falklands to destroy the whole Argentine airforce. These systems were made to kill low flying jets on bombing runs. We also have the longer range Rapier missile system, which could hit aircraft as they start their bmbing runs, we had them in 1982, but they took 2 weeks to setup, if we had them sooner, Argentina would have lost many more aircraft, so 3 lines of defence.

    The EU counts the Falklands, as a European territory, so they must defend it under the Lisbon treaty. The UK and Falklanders have 1,400 troops, not including crews of ships in the south Atlantic. It doesn't have a coastal defence apart from Stanley and around the bases. It would crush small units, Argentina would need to land atleast 3,000 troops in the first 36 hours to take the Falklands, it doesn't have the ability to do that.
     

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