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Thread: Guns and kids

  1. Default

    Yes I cannot deny that people did play a part in the deaths but those were regrettably preventable deaths
    Every suicide is preventable. The method is not the issue. It's the motivation that's the problem.
    A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep

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  3. #102

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    Yes, there are easy methods of reducing deaths - we have a program here called "Do the five"



    Quote:
    1. Fence the pool
    2. Shut the gate
    3. Teach your kids to swim - it's great
    4. Supervise - watch your mate and
    5. Learn how to resuscitate



    yet you blanch at the prospect of doing the same thing with guns....better to lock them up and keep the kids in the dark,eh?
    Out to the road,out 'neath the stars,feelin' the breeze,passing the cars.....

  4. #103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hiimjered View Post
    Even with the prevention techniques, the number of children drowning in pools hasn't reached a lower number than the number of children dying from guns. Yet there are far fewer pools than guns.

    The rate of children dying from guns is about as low as it could possibly get with anything short of an absolute eradication of firearms. Most of the deaths that would be preventable couldn't be prevented by any public policy, other people involved would have had to step in.

    One thing that would be effective in preventing some of the deaths would be gun education at public schools - an idea that outrages the liberals among us. Teach children about gun safety early and they are less likely to have an accident. Most families with guns are good about this, but that doesn't help the child from a gun-free family that encounters one.

    Do you have any suggestions on policies that would reduce the tiny number of childhood gun deaths any further?
    Read my previous post

    2 simple methods

    firstly an indicator to show if the gun is loaded (and THAT is an idea whose time is long overdue

    and secondly child safety locks on the guns themselves - and there has to be a simple way of doing THAT

    But until America, one of the biggest producers of handguns, admits there is a problem with children accidentally being shot then these initiatives will never get off of the ground
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

  5. #104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStrSt8 View Post
    Sorry sport.living live in a foam rubber cocoon ,afraid to go outside doesn't appeal to me..you can't keep everyone safe all of the time
    And if it were your child? Your sibling? What if the child were not killed but maimed for life?
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

  6. Default

    And if it were your child? Your sibling? What if the child were not killed but maimed for life?
    What if?

    Come on now. You have to do better then what if you are talking about the restriction of the ownership of private property. If you grant authority to limit freedom on the presumption that it prevents death, you had better come to the table with a very strong argument. What you are talking about pushes us further toward the precipice of a very slippery slope. There has to be a very good reason why it is necessary in order for everyone to agree.

    If the only limiting factor is whether or not death can be prevented then there's a product list that is vast and varied that necessarily must also meet this criteria. How crippled would our society be if nothing we did could involve the risk of death?
    Last edited by Fangbeer; Jan 28 2012 at 04:58 PM.
    A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowerbird View Post
    Read my previous post

    2 simple methods

    firstly an indicator to show if the gun is loaded (and THAT is an idea whose time is long overdue

    and secondly child safety locks on the guns themselves - and there has to be a simple way of doing THAT

    But until America, one of the biggest producers of handguns, admits there is a problem with children accidentally being shot then these initiatives will never get off of the ground
    A loaded gun indicator might be useful - as long as it never gave a false negative; however, it might make people complacent. The standard thing that is taught to every gun user is to ALWAYS check to ensure that the gun is cleared every time you pick it up. Even if you see someone clear the weapon, you clear it yourself. This is also one of those things that would be taught in school if such was allowed.

    As for child locks, I don't know of any child locks on any current items that are very effective against children. It would be impressive to come up with something like that for a firearm - especially something that is simple and intuitive enough that an adult wouldn't be distracted when the gun is actually needed. If something were developed, it wouldn't do anything to help the hundreds of millions of guns in private hands already, especially not the ones in the hands of criminals.

    As with anything else, it is easy to get the number of deaths from most causes down to a manageable level, but as that number of deaths approaches zero the cost and effort required to eliminate each death gets higher and higher.

    I find myself going back to the pool example because it is a great comparison. The current methods will reduce deaths. The next step to cut deaths would be mandatory swimming and self-rescue training to young children - which would be a huge taxpayer expense and would only cut a handful of the deaths. To reduce them still further would require some kind of automatic hardshell pool cover that would automatically cover the pool when adults aren't present or similar technology. This would cost billions and would only prevent a few more. Each step toward zero is far more expensive and intrusive than the step before.

    With firearms we've already reached a pretty solid equilibrium point between number of deaths and the cost/intrusion that people are willing to accept.
    TANSTAAFL

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fangbeer View Post
    What if?

    Come on now. You have to do better then what if you are talking about the restriction of the ownership of private property.
    But I am not - that is my point. Nearly every single American on this thread has simply assumed so - thereby proving that there is a cultural barrier to discussions surrounding accidental child deaths when it involves firearms

    If you grant authority to limit freedom on the presumption that it prevents death, you had better come to the table with a very strong argument. What you are talking about pushes us further toward the precipice of a very slippery slope. There has to be a very good reason why it is necessary in order for everyone to agree.
    So where has anyone suggested we do that?
    If the only limiting factor is whether or not death can be prevented then there's a product list that is vast and varied that necessarily must also meet this criteria. How crippled would our society be if nothing we did could involve the risk of death?
    Actually that is a good point - if guns were a faulty product would you accept this injury rate?
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

  9. Default

    firstly an indicator to show if the gun is loaded (and THAT is an idea whose time is long overdue
    Firearm safety rule 1.
    A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep

  10. #109
    austria
    Location: Perth, Australia
    Posts: 7,950

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStrSt8 View Post
    Yes, there are easy methods of reducing deaths - we have a program here called "Do the five"

    Quote:
    1. Fence the pool
    2. Shut the gate
    3. Teach your kids to swim - it's great
    4. Supervise - watch your mate and
    5. Learn how to resuscitate
    That's actually an Australian program:

    http://kidsalive.com.au/

    Back to the topic ...

  11. #110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hiimjered View Post
    A loaded gun indicator might be useful - as long as it never gave a false negative; however, it might make people complacent. The standard thing that is taught to every gun user is to ALWAYS check to ensure that the gun is cleared every time you pick it up. Even if you see someone clear the weapon, you clear it yourself. This is also one of those things that would be taught in school if such was allowed.

    As for child locks, I don't know of any child locks on any current items that are very effective against children. It would be impressive to come up with something like that for a firearm - especially something that is simple and intuitive enough that an adult wouldn't be distracted when the gun is actually needed. If something were developed, it wouldn't do anything to help the hundreds of millions of guns in private hands already, especially not the ones in the hands of criminals.

    As with anything else, it is easy to get the number of deaths from most causes down to a manageable level, but as that number of deaths approaches zero the cost and effort required to eliminate each death gets higher and higher.

    I find myself going back to the pool example because it is a great comparison. The current methods will reduce deaths. The next step to cut deaths would be mandatory swimming and self-rescue training to young children - which would be a huge taxpayer expense and would only cut a handful of the deaths. To reduce them still further would require some kind of automatic hardshell pool cover that would automatically cover the pool when adults aren't present or similar technology. This would cost billions and would only prevent a few more. Each step toward zero is far more expensive and intrusive than the step before.

    With firearms we've already reached a pretty solid equilibrium point between number of deaths and the cost/intrusion that people are willing to accept.
    Again it is a matter of actually getting to the point of discussion in America without the fear mongering relating to removal of weapons. Until THAT happens there is no impetus on the firearm manufacturers themselves to come up with solutions that meet the criteria - and I am sure it can be done. Heck they are going there with user recognition and who knows? Next years models might only be able to be fired if you have an imbedded microchip - that would stop someone using your gun against you or even stealing your gun


    And it is interesting that you mention mandated swimming lessons - we are close to doing that. We have a LOT of free swimming lessons for kids under five (you did not click my link obviously) and nearly every primary school in my state has a swimming pool and the kids are bloody taught to swim first grade

    No wonder we keep beating you at the Olympics
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

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