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Thread: The Hypocrisy Of The Pro Life Movement

  1. #261

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    DixNickson said, "Could abortion be akin to modern day enslavement, human trafficking ending in profit and a sudden violent end of life for the weak?"

    Or could it be just old fashion murder?

    "Slaves were/are their Master's objects until "set free" either by their Master's decree or by one's death. The State judicial system has in one respect appointed Mommy to a Plantation Master status. The life and death fate of the developing child within Mommy's womb is subject to Mommy's inclinations, not unlike the United States pre-Civil War master/slave relationship, except slaves were generally more highly prized by their masters than the children of Abortion-minded-Mamas."
    She holds the ax.

    The abortion minded society you mean. The woman today has more power over life and death than any man on earth.


    "I wonder how long before "harvested" aborted baby organs and tissue become a traded commodity? Years ago I would never thought it possible but with the current administration focused on going green and what I can only categorize as man's inhumanity to man is it only a matter of time?"
    Every pro-choicer out there should be fighting for this to happen. Its the woman's decision….its her body…..part of her they say….so why should she not be able to make a business out of this? Abortion for profit…fetus for sale? And this has happened as PP was caught doing this…and selling fetal body parts.

    "Perhaps my "inconsistencies" might collate if you considered that the US Federal Supreme Court found Mommy's "right" to abort on demand but made Daddy financially "responsible" for Mommy's "choice" to allow the child to live when Daddy's choice was death for the child. Why shouldn't Mommy bear the financial responsibility if it is her exclusive choice to let the child live? And conversely, because we are talking about rights, why can't Daddy have his "choice" of life for his child enforced in court over Mommy's desire to kill the developing boy or girl?"
    She should and it amazes me that more fathers don't step up….they are easily manipulated and obviously the majority just don't care.

    The woman should bear all responsibilities….financial and everything else. The law has made it so that the woman holds all the cards…so why shouldn't she step up to the plate and take control?



    "I see judicial hypocrisy when considering what takes place during abortions and criminal homicides involving a mother and her unborn child. The same result...the taking of life but the State makes a distinction between these deaths. One is a right the other is a crime. Guess the unborn have no right to self-defense...but mistreat a dog or cat and you may make the evening news."
    Our laws are wishy washy. Our courts say…no that which is in the womb is not a person…so it can be aborted…only if a hired abortionist does it. Scott Peterson…is sitting on death row…not for one death but for two.


    The entire pro-choice community is hypocritical.

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  3. #262

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    Junkieturtle said,

    "I included killing in there more because it's the pro-life side who tend to make the jump from abortion to murder. I personally don't see it that way, but since no abortion debate seems able to be had without someone throwing around the term murder, I thought I'd address it right from the get-go."
    Well…it is a human and it is killed against its will. Some on the pro-choice side say….abortion is a tough decision…..tell me what is so tough about it? Our society once said it was murder…and then in January 1973…they all of a sudden said…no abortion is not murder. The unborn had personhood….and in one day lost it. Will rape one day be morally ok and legal? Prostitution? Child porn? Who knows……...



    "I think these terms are more broad than the abortion debate. As Cady pointed out in her post above mine, being pro-life when it comes to abortion does not mean you are pro-life in general. It's a descriptive term that is mostly used to signify your position specifically on the abortion debate. The same thing is true of pro-choice. Pro-abortion/anti-abortion is probably the closest term you listed that really gets to the heart of the matter, though the label pro-abortion is often used to give the false impression that pro-choicers are in favor of increased abortions, or that they in some way like them."

    It does have to do with the issue specifically…but in general most people who are pro-life and against abortion are also against euthanasia and embryonic stem cell and assisted suicide. And most people I would guess who are pro-abortion are for all three.
    I think Cady nailed it when she framed the debate as Pro-abortion rights/anti-abortion rights. I think that most accurately breaks down what the debate is truly about.

  4. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady View Post
    The developing child within Mommy's womb is developing at the expense of her body. Whose inclinations do you think it should be subject to? Forced pregnancy is slavery of women.



    Without legal abortion, men would be responsible for the government's "choice." Many men play a part in the abortion decision, and would not appreciate your "defense" of them.



    Mommy does bear financial responsibility, based on her income. Why can't Daddy demand that a woman risk her health or life and permanently damage her body with pregnancy and childbirth? Do you really have to ask?





    Terminate the pregnancy of a dog or cat and no one cares, I promise.

    Pregnancy via impressment would be enslavement, so we are talking about women who have, by threat of force or confinement against their will, been impregnated? That does narrow the discussion quite a bit for me. Of course the perpetrator of this crime should be charged with a number of felonies.The Abortion Mills vs the Baby Mills, though I've heard of one involving a kidnap victim recently aren't most females used as sex slaves and not so much for child bearing? How many illegal Baby Mills are operating in the United States of America?

    Nonetheless Can we agree that enslavement can be an uncomfortable or even an unnatural condition for the slave? And if that can be accepted can we agree that a pregnancy, at least for discussion, may be considered a natural occurrence that can follow a predictable process and outcome but is initially dependent on very specific collaborative personal behavioral choices and interaction for most?

    A woman whose body is enslaved by meth (let's say) has followed a process too but let's draw a distinction between what some see as a disease of addiction and a naturally occurring biological imperative benefitting the perpetuity of humanity. Both the addict and expectant mother were involved in behavior that brought each to their present condition.

    Still the flip side of any right is responsibility for any consequence of exercising that right. Both of our hypothetical women above made choices and were involved in acts that were/are crucial to their physiological status. What is interesting to me is that for one to save herself she must choose life over death while the other because of her transient "condition" has a State supported power (called it a power because it is exercised over another) to choose the death of her closest kin.

    Sincerely asked. How is the woman's body damaged by pregnancy? Can pregnancy be beneficial? Does abortion damage a woman's body or affect her health?

    And lastly regarding a defense...if possessing the wherewithal I would be strongly inclined to defend victims. And though those whose aborted remains, be they surgically dismembered on a slab, in a container, in the bottom of a bucket or discarded in another manner are the primary and the unsalvageable victims they are not always the exclusive victim. For the record I find hurting or mistreating animals personally repulsive so, for me, your promise provides no comfort.

  5. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkieturtle View Post
    That's an interesting angle I haven't heard anybody put forth before.

    I think, more than anything else, it deals with mental factors and the development of sentience and self-awareness. While you're right that the process of death begins well before actual clinical death could be said to have occurred, we also rule that people who have suffered brain injuries to the point of being brain dead can be disconnected from life support if that is their wishes or the wishes of whomever they've set in charge of that for themselves. We recognize that biologically, the person's body and organs may still be living, but the actual person, meaning their personality, resides in the brain.

    It goes farther than that though, past the discussions of viability and sentience because we also have to consider the parasitic nature of pregnancy and how much choice a woman has about what is happening inside her body. I do not call pregnancy parasitic to be insulting or to somehow downplay it, it is simply the accurate term to describe what is occurring. It's not even mutual symbiosis, the fetus takes nourishment and other bodily resources from the mother, but provides nothing in return, making it the definition of a parasite. I'm 100% for conversations about preventing unwanted pregnancies, even abstinence only education. I think people should be more responsible as well. But they won't be, and for all the knowledge we have about preventing unwanted pregnancies, there will still be some, and we will always be dealing with the questions of personal rights to your own body.

    My stance on this issue has always been more about that than about questions of birth control, and most certainly not about eugenics, which I do not believe in or promote.
    I get it that you are drawing on your understanding of science, medicine and using critical thinking in trying to determine when life or if not life maybe when personhood begins and/or ceases? I'm drawing on some of the same standards and disciplines.



    Would you say your mental component factor equates to a simple awareness or are you intending this to be oriented to a minimal standard such as person, time and place? Could you see your standard, if enforceable by the State, and used by a governmental employee to assess say a minute old homeostatic infant, would the infant be allowed to exist by that standard? If the standard criteria alone was used to assess a human suffering from Alzheimer disease or one with dementia would the results allow their life to continue? Would reaction to pain stimuli exclusively be given a consideration or should this be chalked up to an autonomic response and not enough awareness to deserve life?



    Ironically it occurs to me as I continue in this discussion that we are discussing some human life as a privilege...for me that is a chilling consideration especially so since the government is taking over healthcare. When government tells you what it is doing is for your own good...beware. I think government, left to its own devices, tends to serve itself.



    Pregnancy, in my opinion, is not a disease or parasitic condition but rather an expected transient biological status that culminates with another opportunity to continue and maybe improve the race. I firmly believe a woman's body is specifically designed for this biological process and is absolutely necessary for mankind's survival. If a woman could not take care of herself and her children looked after her wellbeing has mother become a parasite? Or would her children's attention be a testimony and a benefit for her interest in their life? In my opinion and as much as this may offend many, a mother's commitment to the life of her children is the reason that many of us are here today to argue for or against the life of others.



    Props to all Moms.
    Last edited by DixNickson; Apr 27 2012 at 10:51 AM. Reason: grammar

  6. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady View Post
    I don't care what you call me or what you think of me. What bothers me is that all of your posts consist of labeling and demonizing the opposition, with not a shred of support for your position. THAT is why you have been banned from multiple sites.
    No it was for using the term pro-abortion…never swore at anyone used profanity….simply used the title. There is nothing wrong with labels. I am a Christian….I am a mother…..I am a grandmother…..I am pro-choice…..I am anti-choice abortion….I am a Republican…..I and Conservative. Demonizing? How do I demonize? Do you not like the label? I offer a lot of support and factual information for my position…you just discount anything that puts your position in its place.

  7. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    No it was for using the term pro-abortion…never swore at anyone used profanity….simply used the title. There is nothing wrong with labels. I am a Christian….I am a mother…..I am a grandmother…..I am pro-choice…..I am anti-choice abortion….I am a Republican…..I and Conservative. Demonizing? How do I demonize? Do you not like the label? I offer a lot of support and factual information for my position…you just discount anything that puts your position in its place.
    You have offered little to no factual information, most of which is completely anecdotal and pertaining to what you do at work, and because it's a personal experience, it cannot be verified. Swing and a miss....
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  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DixNickson View Post
    Pregnancy via impressment would be enslavement, so we are talking about women who have, by threat of force or confinement against their will, been impregnated?
    I think it is obvious I was talking about women who forced to remain pregnant against their will.

    A woman whose body is enslaved by meth (let's say) has followed a process too but let's draw a distinction between what some see as a disease of addiction and a naturally occurring biological imperative benefitting the perpetuity of humanity. Both the addict and expectant mother were involved in behavior that brought each to their present condition.
    Interesting that you liken a pregnant woman's actions to those of a criminal.

    Still the flip side of any right is responsibility for any consequence of exercising that right. Both of our hypothetical women above made choices and were involved in acts that were/are crucial to their physiological status. What is interesting to me is that for one to save herself she must choose life over death while the other because of her transient "condition" has a State supported power (called it a power because it is exercised over another) to choose the death of her closest kin.
    Before you determine there is a death, you have to establish there was a life.

    Sincerely asked. How is the woman's body damaged by pregnancy? Can pregnancy be beneficial? Does abortion damage a woman's body or affect her health?
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    loose skin
    permanent weight gain or redistribution
    abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
    changes to breasts
    varicose veins
    scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

    Occasional complications and side effects:

    spousal/partner abuse
    hyperemesis gravidarum
    temporary and permanent injury to back
    severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
    dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    gestational diabetes
    placenta previa
    anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    thrombocytopenic purpura
    severe cramping
    embolism (blood clots)
    medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    hormonal imbalance
    ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    hemorrhage and
    numerous other complications of delivery
    refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

    Less common (but serious) complications:

    peripartum cardiomyopathy
    cardiopulmonary arrest
    magnesium toxicity
    severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    massive embolism
    increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    malignant arrhythmia
    circulatory collapse
    placental abruption
    obstetric fistula

    More permanent side effects:
    future infertility
    permanent disability
    death.

    A wanted pregnancy is beneficial. Pregnancy and childbirth is 13 times more likely to cause death than abortion.


    And lastly regarding a defense...if possessing the wherewithal I would be strongly inclined to defend victims. And though those whose aborted remains, be they surgically dismembered on a slab, in a container, in the bottom of a bucket or discarded in another manner are the primary and the unsalvageable victims they are not always the exclusive victim. For the record I find hurting or mistreating animals personally repulsive so, for me, your promise provides no comfort.
    An aborted embryo/fetus is not a victim. It has no feelings, no consciousness; it loses nothing but potential.
    ""Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false." --Bertrand Russell

  9. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady View Post
    I think it is obvious I was talking about women who forced to remain pregnant against their will.
    Morning Cady
    Musta been one of those sender/receiver issues. Happens all the time on recreational forums.



    Interesting that you liken a pregnant woman's actions to those of a criminal.
    Now who is ignoring the obvious? Conditions and processes were part of my statement, you brought up "criminal."

    I thought most folks for abortion on demand would be more sympathetic to the plight of anyone entrapped by dependency. Sometimes the only choice one has to not be an addict is to never try drugs. The body's homeostasis is changed, the addict is in torment but you feel or would suggest that a meth addict is a criminal because of the addiction? I'm not sure that the addiction is a crime. Unless you mean a crime for treating one's body in a disrespectful or sinful fashion?



    Before you determine there is a death, you have to establish there was a life.
    Are you saying that the unborn are dead until delivered? That mommy is carrying a developing cadaver that is resurrected via the birth canal? Your logic provokes unusual conclusions.


    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    loose skin
    permanent weight gain or redistribution
    abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
    changes to breasts
    varicose veins
    scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

    Occasional complications and side effects:

    spousal/partner abuse
    hyperemesis gravidarum
    temporary and permanent injury to back
    severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
    dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    gestational diabetes
    placenta previa
    anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    thrombocytopenic purpura
    severe cramping
    embolism (blood clots)
    medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    hormonal imbalance
    ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    hemorrhage and
    numerous other complications of delivery
    refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

    Less common (but serious) complications:

    peripartum cardiomyopathy
    cardiopulmonary arrest
    magnesium toxicity
    severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    massive embolism
    increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    malignant arrhythmia
    circulatory collapse
    placental abruption
    obstetric fistula

    More permanent side effects:
    future infertility
    permanent disability
    death.
    Thank you. You have an outstanding recall. Amazing how many untoward medical conditions are exclusive to pregnancy. Look at all the conditions one would never incur if they avoid conceiving. As for death I, for one, am for avoiding that side effect for as long as I can.


    A wanted pregnancy is beneficial.
    Really? Have you looked at your posted list?



    Pregnancy and childbirth is 13 times more likely to cause death than abortion.
    Again really? And I was of the understanding that abortion, if successful, caused death one hundred percent of the time. Wait you're gonna bring up that cadaver thing, right? Dang!




    An aborted embryo/fetus is not a victim. It has no feelings, no consciousness; it loses nothing but potential.
    I can agree that the target of an abortion loses...everything.

    And mommy (another victim of abortion) to varying degrees does too.

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DixNickson View Post
    The body's homeostasis is changed, the addict is in torment but you feel or would suggest that a meth addict is a criminal because of the addiction? I'm not sure that the addiction is a crime. Unless you mean a crime for treating one's body in a disrespectful or sinful fashion?
    One who breaks the law is a criminal, whether we sympathize with him or not.

    Are you saying that the unborn are dead until delivered? That mommy is carrying a developing cadaver that is resurrected via the birth canal? Your logic provokes unusual conclusions.
    Please excuse my use of the words "a life" to mean a human being as virtually all pro-lifers do.

    Thank you. You have an outstanding recall. Amazing how many untoward medical conditions are exclusive to pregnancy. Look at all the conditions one would never incur if they avoid conceiving. As for death I, for one, am for avoiding that side effect for as long as I can.
    Didn't you (sincerely) ask "How is the woman's body damaged by pregnancy?" I didn't see the word "exclusively" in your post. Must be that sender/receiver thing again.

    Really? Have you looked at your posted list?
    Women with wanted pregnancies have the same complications, but they are willing to risk them for their perceived benefit of having a child.

    Again really? And I was of the understanding that abortion, if successful, caused death one hundred percent of the time. Wait you're gonna bring up that cadaver thing, right? Dang!
    Again, your sincerely asked question was, "Does abortion damage a woman's body or affect her health?" So no, abortion doesn't cause death to the woman 100% of the time.

    I can agree that the target of an abortion loses...everything.

    And mommy (another victim of abortion) to varying degrees does too.
    And for the target of an abortion, potential is everything.

    Sincerely asked. How is "mommy" a victim of abortion?
    Last edited by Cady; Apr 29 2012 at 06:00 PM.
    ""Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false." --Bertrand Russell

  11. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cady View Post
    An aborted embryo/fetus is not a victim. It has no feelings, no consciousness; it loses nothing but potential.
    How do you sleep at night with sociopathic views like this? I've done all I can to get through to you people, but I give up. I'm convinced you're just sick in the head. You have no value for human life. Not even your own children. YOUR OWN CHIILDREN. They mean nothing to you. They are just insignificant blobs of flesh. Is that how you see yourself? Do you see yourself as insignificant and not worth living? Because if you don't love yourself then it would make sense that you can't love something that comes from you. I hope that's not the case. I feel truly sorry for anyone who devalues their own life so much that they cannot even love their own child enough to protect them from death.
    There is no such stance as "pro-choice." Anything that denies the victim a voice in their own fate cannot be defined as choice. Thus there is truly only pro-life or pro-death.

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