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Thread: Stop complaining: Cost of living is fine.

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    If that's what it takes.
    I don't like your vision of the future.

    Stay out of politics, hey.

  2. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    Assisting someone who cant help themselves is not the same with giving money to someone who can get it.
    So I was right when I quessed you have never held a full time job in your life. I shows clearly in your attitude and world view.
    Because you have such a narrow, ignorant and myopic view, you cannot see or understand the big picture. Industry assistance is not given to the workers, it is provided to various industries for a variety of reasons.
    Where it is provided to keep an industry running which may fold without assistance it is done because it is a better option for the community as a whole than letting the industry fold. The assistance filters down through a vast network of other support industries and their support industries in turn. The wages being paid in turn support the whole community and all the businesses that provide goods and services at a community level and in turn all the businesses that provide goods and services to those businesses.
    When a manufacturing industry folds, you can multiply the job losses by 4 times the number of workers who worked directly in the industry. Stop for a moment and think about the stupid statement you have made above.
    Last edited by Adultmale; Feb 16 2012 at 06:36 PM.

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyboy View Post
    I don't like your vision of the future.
    What vision was that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyboy View Post
    Stay out of politics, hey.
    Why? Because you cant refute me? Sorry, aint gonna happen.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    So I was right when I quessed you have never held a full time job in your life.
    I shows clearly in your attitude and world view.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Because you have such a narrow, ignorant and myopic view,
    How is it an ignorant view?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    you cannot see or understand the big picture. Industry assistance is not given to the workers, it is provided to various industries for a variety of reasons.
    Go through the reasons and I will show they are all invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Where it is provided to keep an industry running which may fold without assistance it is done because it is a better option for the community as a whole than letting the industry fold.
    But it isn't a better option. I've gone through this. Its expensive and pointless for the whole community and only benefits a few people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    The assistance filters down through a vast network of other support industries and their support industries in turn.
    Total nonsense. Ultimately the costs are passed down to everyone because they have to pay for the wages of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    The wages being paid in turn support the whole community and all the businesses that provide goods and services at a community level and in turn all the businesses that provide goods and services to those businesses.
    Total nonsense. Explain how a teacher benefits from subsidies to aluminum industry. Explain how a doctor gets a benefit from paying for the wages of a worker at Alcoa? What you are talking about is a fantasy version of economics. There is no 'trickle down' effect of subsidies. They do nothing but sustain weak businesses until there is some economic pressure in which they all keel over. In the meantime everyone else has to pay for something they get no benefit from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    When a manufacturing industry folds, you can multiply the job losses by 4 times the number of workers who worked directly in the industry.
    Show me evidence of that assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Stop for a moment and think about the stupid statement you have made above.
    Is that statement addressed to me or you? I hardly see how it applies to me.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    You keep up with this rethoric but the fact is the data says you are wrong.
    Your either very rich or very stupid if you cannot see what is happening in the world today.

    If it wasn't for the mining boom here in Australia, the IMF would be knocking on our door probably asking for austerity measures in order we pay back our loans.

    What statistics and who's data are you talking about, statistics are only as good as the input, in other words sh!t in sh!t out.

    Its like the climate change model which neglects many factors styling it to a particular outcome.

    Like i said sh!t in.........................
    Last edited by dumbanddumber; Feb 18 2012 at 05:43 PM.
    There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than the carbon tax. dumbanddumber

    "The cost, paid by big polluters, will be passed through to the prices of the goods you buy." Julia Gillard

    "Australian households will ultimately bear the full cost of the carbon price." Ross Garnaut

    "A carbon tax does not guarantee emissions reductions" Former Labor Climate Change Minister Penny Wong

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    Your either very rich or very stupid if you cannot see what is happening in the world today.
    I ain't rich and I ain't stupid, so why don't you just go ahead and back up the claim the world is going down hill.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    If it wasn't for the mining boom here in Australia, the IMF would be knocking on our door probably asking for austerity measures in order we pay back our loans.
    Maybe. But the fact remains the mining boom is here and when it begins to dissipate, people will move on to other industries.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    What statistics and who's data are you talking about, statistics are only as good as the input, in other words sh!t in sh!t out.
    See the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    Its like the climate change model which neglects many factors styling it to a particular outcome. Like i said sh!t in.........................
    You've been talking a lot of (*)(*)(*)(*) yourself. How about some evidence to prove your pessimistic claims?
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  7. Default

    Do you live here!

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    I ain't rich and I ain't stupid, so why don't you just go ahead and back up the claim the world is going down hill.

    if you live here you'll know exactly what i'm talking about


    Maybe. But the fact remains the mining boom is here and when it begins to dissipate, people will move on to other industries.

    Just exactly which other industries will they go to, the automobile indutsry, how about the aluminium smelter industry, or the banking industry, what about aviation and service industries?


    See the OP.
    I have nothing there that makes me think otherwise


    You've been talking a lot of (*)(*)(*)(*) yourself. How about some evidence to prove your pessimistic claims?

    Like i said you live here right! i dont have to explain anything then since you must know.
    There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than the carbon tax. dumbanddumber

    "The cost, paid by big polluters, will be passed through to the prices of the goods you buy." Julia Gillard

    "Australian households will ultimately bear the full cost of the carbon price." Ross Garnaut

    "A carbon tax does not guarantee emissions reductions" Former Labor Climate Change Minister Penny Wong

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    Do you live here!

    if you live here you'll know exactly what i'm talking about
    I'll repeat myself. If you think the country is going downhill, prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    Just exactly which other industries will they go to, the automobile indutsry, how about the aluminium smelter industry, or the banking industry, what about aviation and service industries?
    Most likely services industry, or new industries will emerge naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    I have nothing there that makes me think otherwise
    So why do you not consider the information sourced invalid? Could you point out its analytical errors please.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbanddumber View Post
    Like i said you live here right! i dont have to explain anything then since you must know.
    No I dont know and I do live here. So like I said back up your claims.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  9. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    But it isn't a better option. I've gone through this. Its expensive and pointless for the whole community and only benefits a few people.
    Total nonsense. Ultimately the costs are passed down to everyone because they have to pay for the wages of others.
    You are wrong and clearly too stupid to work it out for yourself.
    Lets say we have a factory employing 1000 workers churning out widgets which are exported and sold domesticaly. Every year the factory spends $200,000,000 on inputs. That's wages, goods and services to make the widgets. But now in order to compete with imported widgets from China they can only sell their widgets for $180,000,000 each year. They are $20,000,000 short just to break even. So they go to the government and say, "we have done everything we can by way of efficientcy but we just can't compete with cheaper imports from China. Can you please kick in the extra 20 mill we need to stay open". The government looks at the situation and says, "Sure, we'll give you the extra you need".
    Now we have the widget factory pouring $180,000,000 into the community and earning export dollars for the benefit of the whole country every year and government providing 20 million, a poultry amount.
    If the government said, "No, p!ss off" the government would have $20 mill to spend on something else but the widget factory would close, 1000 people directly would lose their jobs, plus all the jobs in the industries supplying the widget factory would go, plus all the jobs the spending of those workers supported would go, the government would cease getting all the tax from those wages (this alone would nearly amount to $20 mill), their export dollars would disappear and the community would lose $180 million.
    The money previously spent supporting industry and jobs in Australia is now spent supporting industry and jobs in China. Instead of money coming into Australia from exports, it all goes out with spending on imports.
    Say there was $150 mill worth of Australian made widgets sold in Australia. With assistance that $150 mill continues to circulate in Australia. Without assistance the whole (or most of) that $150 mill leaves Australia to fatten some Chinese industry moguls.
    Can you see the sense in providing government assistance to industry now? The governments $20 mill would have been well spent. And that's only on economic and social grounds, there are other reasons for doing it too.
    Last edited by Adultmale; Feb 19 2012 at 03:58 AM.

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    You are wrong and clearly too stupid to work it out for yourself.
    Yeah, clearly

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Lets say we have a factory employing 1000 workers churning out widgets which are exported and sold domesticaly. Every year the factory spends $200,000,000 on inputs. That's wages, goods and services to make the widgets. But now in order to compete with imported widgets from China they can only sell their widgets for $180,000,000 each year. They are $20,000,000 short just to break even. So they go to the government and say, "we have done everything we can by way of efficientcy but we just can't compete with cheaper imports from China. Can you please kick in the extra 20 mill we need to stay open". The government looks at the situation and says, "Sure, we'll give you the extra you need".
    Now we have the widget factory pouring $180,000,000 into the community and earning export dollars for the benefit of the whole country every year and government providing 20 million, a poultry amount.
    Here's what I think should happen:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Lets say we have a factory employing 1000 workers churning out widgets which are exported and sold domesticaly. Every year the factory spends $200,000,000 on inputs. That's wages, goods and services to make the widgets. But now in order to compete with imported widgets from China they can only sell their widgets for $180,000,000 each year. They are $20,000,000 short just to break even. So they go to the government and say, "we have done everything we can by way of efficientcy but we just can't compete with cheaper imports from China. Can you please kick in the extra 20 mill we need to stay open". The government looks at the situation and says, "Sure, we'll give you the extra you need".
    Now we have the widget factory pouring $180,000,000 into the community and earning export dollars for the benefit of the whole country every year and government providing 20 million, a poultry amount.
    The government says, "no (*)(*)(*)(*) off and earn your own living." 20 million must be taken from other industries. This means the government needs to tax Australians $20 million to pay for a measly 1000 jobs. Consider doing this for every business that couldn't compete? That being said, the factory would not close, and there is no such thing as "cant do anything else." What they would do is lay off some people so they didn't have to pay them all, and could thus lower the price of the widgets. They could also set about improving the production capacity of their company to make the widgets at a cheaper price. There are a myriad of things they could do. By getting money, this means people in China cannot compete with Australians because Australians get a subsidy. Consequently consumers generally are not better off because they need to pay for other people's jobs. It is not the community that would lose 180 million if the business went under. The people that would lose the 180 million would be the company.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    The money previously spent supporting industry and jobs in Australia is now spent supporting industry and jobs in China.
    Hows that? When did the Australian government start subsidize Chinese industry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Instead of money coming into Australia from exports, it all goes out with spending on imports.
    Wrong. Because the Chinese widgets are cheaper, the consumers of them pay less, thus having more money to do other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Say there was $150 mill worth of Australian made widgets sold in Australia. With assistance that $150 mill continues to circulate in Australia. Without assistance the whole (or most of) that $150 mill leaves Australia to fatten some Chinese industry moguls.
    Can you see the sense in providing government assistance to industry now?
    No. The cost-benefit calculation inevitably means Aussies lose out generally, because people have to essentially pay the wages of others. The reality is jobs are created constantly. The guys form the factory could go work somewhere else, or get training/education, which I support improving, that allows them to reenter the labor force without strife.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adultmale View Post
    Can you see the sense in providing government assistance to industry now? The governments $20 mill would have been well spent. And that's only on economic and social grounds, there are other reasons for doing it too.
    Go through the others because the ones you have mentioned here are flawed to say the least.
    Last edited by MegadethFan; Feb 19 2012 at 04:23 AM.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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