The rich SHOULD pay a higher tax rate!!

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by frodly, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    The rich should pay a higher tax rate for a very simple reason, and that reason has absolutely nothing to do with socialism, jealousy, punishing the rich, nor any other absurd fantasy, propagated by the propaganda the wealthy members of the world fund.


    No the reason the rich SHOULD pay a higher tax rate is quite simple, it is because they benefit more from government. Taxes are basically at their most simple level, a payment to government for services rendered. We pay them to protect us, to give us health care, to create laws, etc. Those may not be services that you want, but they are services that enough people want, that it is the reality.

    The services that the federal government provides to the average person are pretty low in monetary value. A person may get use of interstate highways, they may get some protection of their property, etc.

    This is the very simplistic place where the difference is obvious. The wealthy own more property, and they own A LOT more property. It is therefore much more expensive to protect their property, and therefore they should pay more in taxes. However, one could argue that they already pay more in total taxes, and the difference is made up. I would agree, and if that is where the differences ended, I wouldn't have a point.

    The problem is, that isn't where they stop. The wealthy also get a huge array of services from government. To preface this, I am in no way judging the validity or social value of any of the proceeding services. I am not judging them on their social value, only on their monetary value.

    The first most obvious service the wealthy receive, is the government offers patent and copyright protection. The government spends a lot of money protecting those patents, and those patents are worth billions(trillions??) of dollars. They are worth billions to single individuals like Bill Gates alone. While gates would be wealthy either way, without the legal monopoly protection of a patent, he would be no where near the billionaire that he is, because others would be free to make software capable of competing with Microsoft more effectively. Of course their is some competition now, but the barriers to entry created by microsofts ownership of patents/copyrights allows them to keep out competitors, and that drives up prices and makes them billions, while costing the average consumer.

    The next service government provides is that they give bailouts to wealthy companies, and that benefits the executives, bond-holders, and shareholders of those companies most. The average person doesn't get bailed out when their business is failing.

    Government also gives subsides to all sorts of different groups.

    Government also gives no bid contracts to large corporations, and that enriches those companies and their executives.

    Government also is committed to our imperialistic foreign policy. That foreign policy does not benefit the average person in any substantial way, and in fact it is very easy to argue that it makes them less safe. However, who does benefit? Obviously oil companies. Our military interventionism in the Gulf region has allowed us to exert enormous amounts of control in the region, and allows us to work out control over the price of oil. That doesn't mean they keep the price low either, they keep it steady and relatively high by controlling production. Oil wells are capable of extracting more, and therefore lowering the price, but the US and OPEC work to ensure the price is stable and relatively high. The other groups that benefit are Lockhead Martin, Boeing, Haliburton, Blackwater, etc. Now the regular employees of that company benefit as well, but again we are talking about the monetary value of those benefits(since taxes only draw from those monetary resources), and the regular employees benefit at a fraction of the amount of the executives, bondholders, and shareholders!!


    I could go on as well, and continue to list all the things government does for the wealthy, but I already feel like this is too long for many people at this forum to read through, as they prefer 2-3 sentence partisan bickering!! So in summation, the wealthy SHOULD pay a higher burden of the taxes, because they receive a greater share of the benefits from government. Asking them to pay an equal amount of taxes to everyone else, would be like giving 2 people a car. A rich person and a poor/Middle Class person both get a car, therefore it is only fair that they pay the same amount. Except of course, that leaves out the fact that the car the wealthy are receiving is a ferrari and the car the poor/middle class are getting is a 1970 Ford Pinto!! All cars are not created equal, and therefore no sane person would expect you to pay the same amount for different quality cars. Why do we accept that the very wealthy should not pay more for the vastly superior services they receive from government? It is entirely absurd!!
     
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  2. kenrichaed

    kenrichaed Banned

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    You already stated your answer. They pay more taxes than you or me.

    Unless you can itemize the cost of this "protection" you really can't say how much the rich should pay. You are just assuming how much the actual cost is and pulling a number out of your arse that sounds good to you.
     
  3. driller80545

    driller80545 New Member

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    Rich people already pay the vast majority of taxes. You will not be happy until they support you too. Get a job.
     
  4. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    Where did I mention a number? Did you actually read the post? I know it is long, but if it is too much for you, I would prefer you just avoid commenting!! Until you actually read what I wrote, please don't comment any more!!
     
  5. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    Another complete and utter failure to substantively address a single word I wrote!! Rich people pay the largest share of the total taxes, but that is a result of the fact that they have an enormously large share of the money in this country, and says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the effective tax rate they currently pay!! Which in many cases is lower for the extremely wealthy, than it is for the upper middle and middle class.
     
  6. driller80545

    driller80545 New Member

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    They, like you, should not be taxed at all for their labor. It is their private property.
     
  7. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    Its a bull (*)(*)(*)(*) article.

    One cannot accuse America of "imperialism" with a straight face.

    There is nothing imperialistic about the nations of the world coming to the USA for patronage and protection.

    That is not imperialism.

    I don't understand why America's system of patronage towards smaller nations is such an offensive thing.
     
  8. driller80545

    driller80545 New Member

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    What part of broke do you not understand. The gov is seriously overdrawn. Won't be much help to anyone by going into bankruptcy.
     
  9. kenrichaed

    kenrichaed Banned

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    I read everything you wrote. You say they need to pay more taxes and give reasons why but you don't say how much.

    Would 1 dollar more be sufficient for you then? Like I said, you have nothing to base a number off of so how can you claim they should pay more.

    Perhaps they are overpaying for the amount of services they get from the government. Without proper data this argument is just as valid as yours.
     
  10. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    What article? I wrote the OP.


    As far as the imperialism claim. That is of course only 1 point among many, and is actually tangential to the actual point I was making. The point was that our foreign policy benefits the wealthy far more than the average person. The Imperialism claim is not the point, though it is pretty undeniable to any intelligent person who honestly assesses our foreign policy!! Have you ever noticed how many military bases we have the Middle East?

    [​IMG]


    Have you ever noticed how much we intervene, manipulate, bribe, fund tyrannies, etc in the Middle East? The only people who don't understand the Imperialism claim, are thinking in simplistic terms, where Imperialism is understood on pre-modern terms. We have simply found a better and more effective way of controlling and exploiting!! We realize we don't need to directly control, instead we have countries that basically pay us tribute instead. They do that in oil, in political cooperation, in fighting "the war on terror," etc!! Why would we directly control, when it is much cheaper, easier, and just as effective to control through intermediaries and puppet governments? And make no mistake about it, puppet governments are exactly what exist in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, and Egypt. The countries that dare to attempt to express their sovereignty are labelled hostile and constantly threatened. We are certainly imperialistic, just a far more sophisticated and modern form of imperialism!!
     
  11. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    While we could experience hyper inflation or a few other bad effects.. America can never go "bankrupt".

    Answer me this..

    There are a lot of little nations, or ethnicities around the world who would suffer severe loss of territorial integrity, suffer human rights abuses, economic exploitation by hostile neighbors, etc if America wasn't there to act as patron and protector to them.

    Europe can't do it, China won't do it or is one of the "hostile neighbors" or at least ambivalent ones.. so who else is left to do it??
     
  12. kenrichaed

    kenrichaed Banned

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    The Constitution benefited the writers far more than the people also. They actually got extremely rich after it was passed.

    Are you implying it shouldn't have been written?
     
  13. driller80545

    driller80545 New Member

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    america can never go bankrupt. head in sand.
    America hasn't cleaned up its own backyard. has no business advising other countries. Been to the inner city lately? Any inner city in US. Countries that are too weak to survive should fail, just like banks. lol
     
  14. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    LMAO

    I dunno. I know George Washington being raised to the level of deity in the Capitol Rotunda is a rather strange unintended consequence!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Awryly

    Awryly New Member Past Donor

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    Unless you are Mitt Romney. Who pays less than 14%.

    And is apparently proud of it.
     
  16. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    Then take away all the benefits they receive from government, and we can talk about that!! Until that time, your unrealistic and simplistic points are of no value to anyone!!
     
  17. Nate

    Nate New Member

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  18. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    So if China steals the Oceanic real estate of Japan, Vietnam, Phillipines, etc.. we should just sit by and let them do it because our cities aren't paved in gold?
     
  19. headhawg7

    headhawg7 Well-Known Member

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    Why not just cut spending by 70% and eliminate all income taxes? Spending is the problem...it is the reason we are in this mess. The debt is not piling up because we are not taxing enough. It is the spending.

    PS....income tax especially on the middle class and poor is the most evil & insidious fraud ever perpetuated by the US govt on its citizens. It is not necessary to fund our govt. 95% of what our govt is currently doing is not necessary.
     
  20. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    That is because this thread is NOT meant to suggest a tax increase, nor is it meant to suggest a specific tax increase. I have ideas on that front, but this thread is instead about a general justification for progressive taxation in this country!!
     
  21. DaveInFL

    DaveInFL Banned

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    Lots of flaws in your arguement

    You only look at one side of the equation - what you claim the rich receive.

    You ignore what the rich provide. Their property is used to create businesses and provide jobs, those jobs result in payroll and income taxes. Their companies improve the world and provide the products that you buy.

    You assume the rich own "a lot more property". How much? How do you know? I am rich, you would never know it based on the car I drive, the clothes I wear, and the house I live in.

    Patent and copyright protection? I don't have a single patent, but I do have license and royalty agreements with companies. A patent is useless unless you have the money to first get the patent, and second defend the patent. The govt is worthless in defending patents.

    Bill Gates isn't wealthy because of patents, he is wealthy because he has the money to enforce a patent, and he has a monopoly - thats the real reason. Microsoft can outspend or outmarket a competitor, or bully the PC suppliers, and if all else fails Micrososft can just buy the competitor.

    Bailouts are not applied to "the rich", just a few very well connected companies.

    The rest is of your post is just whining.

    You have not made your case.
     
  22. kenrichaed

    kenrichaed Banned

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    You DID suggest a tax increase, this is from your original post:

    Now how can you say that this thread is not meant to suggest a tax increase?
     
  23. Mystriss

    Mystriss New Member

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    I believe you are wrong, oil protection = lower gas prices for the average Joe. I just had to ask my husband how much costs to fill my gas tank, I have honestly never paid attention to it...
     
  24. frodly

    frodly Well-Known Member

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    I ignored it, because it is entirely irrelevant!!

    PS. I suggest you do a bit of research on patent law and Microsoft. Also, Microsoft cannot defend it's patents, it is impossible. Only an entity with the ability to use force to enforce a patent can make a patent mean anything. The way Microsoft defends a patent is to sue people(in government courts) and to have people arrested for copyright infringement. I want you to explain to me the process of protecting a patent or copyright in the absence of government, and then explain how that is applicable to Microsoft now!!

    PPS. Microsoft is a monopoly, because patents/copyrights provide a legal monopoly. That is quite obvious!!
     
  25. JP5

    JP5 Former Moderator Past Donor

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    Wow. There is so much wrong with the OP, it's hard to know where to start. Of course, it's a personal opinion and everyone is entitled to one. This is typical liberal elitism. Most liberal elitists live in their Ivory Towers pretending to be better than everyone else and above everyone else. All the while they benefit themselves from taxpayer subsidies for their educations, end up with a Harvard law degree where they get a job, become rich themselves, but are not known for "gifting" their own money to the poor they are always ranting on behalf of. Name me one liberal elitist who has refused to take ALL the tax deductions available to them? They complain about the rich--so why do the Pelosi's and Buffets of the country spend so much money on lawyers and accountants to find all possible ways to avoid paying taxes? Because they are super rich liberal hypocrites--that's why. If they want to pay more taxes there is no one stopping them but themselves.

    Regarding owning lots of property--they pay lots in real estate taxes to. Real estate taxes goes to local school districts and pays for public education. And while their own children probably don't go there--they still have to pay for everyone else's children in paying for the public school system--which is pathetic due to government intervention.

    Since the rich as a group pay MOST of the federal income taxes, I would think instead of Libs continually demonizing them in their ever-ending quest to play the class warfare game--I would think just a simple "thank you" would be in
    order.
     

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