On Muslims, Secularism And Failures Of Multiculturalism:

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by janpor, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Guys,...

    For the last couple of days I have been freaking out completly.

    My entire Liberal and Socialist foundation has been, and is being, called into question -- by myself. I've never experienced something like this before and I'm feeling sad, confused, angry and upset at the same time because of it.

    All of the above was triggered when I found out the following...

    New figures were released on circumcision in Belgium. Only Jews and Muslims engage is such barbarian behaviour that infringes on the absolute innocence and dignity of a helpless children in Belgium, and Europe as a whole.

    Anyways,...

    The circumcision rate has risen with a baffling +1300% over the last 6 years.

    From 1853 circumcisions in 2006, to a total of 24,113 circumcisions in 2010. :omfg:

    In effect, in 2006 about 3% of all new born males got the snap -- in 2010 it has risen to about 40% (!!!) of all new born males in Belgium.

    Most of the increase is because of boys born into Muslim families...

    Are you kidding me?

    Now, we have know eachother -- the Europeans on PF.com I mean -- for quite some time for y'all to know about my absolute stand against any sort of circumcision for aesthetic or religious reasons upon minors...

    Not only are so many individuals' right infringed upon during their weakest moment in life -- it is all bloody taxpayer funded. In 2010, Social Security paid around €2,3 million for the procedures...

    So, every violation upon the individual in the form of male circumcision costs the taxpayer around €100/butchering.

    HOW OUTRAGEOUS!

    I've had quite enough of this!

    And I've not even started about the increasing violence and "moral police" harrassing progressive individuals like myself or folks who like to dress-up to "abundant" according to "Islamic beliefs".

    I'm going to stop for now since I'm tired of typing this thread.

    You are free to share your thoughts, opinions and so on.

    In the future, it is my intent to use this thread as some sort of online faux-monologue to vent my frustration, since like I said: I really have trouble with all of this.

    (...)

    Source for figures: http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.aspx?articleid=DMF20120214_169
     
  2. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I guess what I'm trying to say to the nice and smart folks on PF.com...

    (to Viv, Leo2, Heroclitus, Red (where is he?), Flag, Paris, Cenyyd, Kilgram, etc.)

    I'm saying: Guys, we've got ourselves a situation.
     
  3. Paris

    Paris Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    104
    Trophy Points:
    63
    As the old master, to the young painter in one of E.T.A. Hoffmann's "Nachtstücke" ... I would say your doubts confirm your vocation.

    But I am no master, to you, I am merely an older apprentice ... so let me tell you my friend: come to fore - skin:)
     
  4. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    761
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ah so daisydotell saw what i did there... ok sorry it was irresponsible, my point being, Do you know what circumcision is?
     
  5. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So 1853 was somehow acceptable (although not liked) but 24,113 is beyond the limit, which drives "a situation"?

    TBH there are significantly larger fish to fry here, female mutilation would be one of those fish. I'm not a fan of the practice of circumcision, but I find it hard to get het up about it.
     
  6. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Leffe,...

    I'd actually told myself the same, that they are biggers things to worry about. From economic stagnation to youth unemployment, and from public infrastructure to the state of our environment.

    However, I could not put it to rest.

    The numbers, however, and this is my fault for not telling you, also include adult circumcisions for medical reasons. Although not many, they are included in the numbers as provided before. It is in the original Dutch article.

    I'd also try to take a moment to point out the obvious and very disturbing double standard in your thinking. So, somehow it is unaceptable to preform circumcision on females but not on males?

    Talk about being absolutely brainwashed, Leffe. So don't come in here and almost accuse me of pushing a banal agenda or something.

    This debate, involves some very solid values and norms our society is build on, e.g. the equality of men and women.

    The concept of liberty: your ends, where mine begins.

    ...

    So, I understand that you *like* to discuss something else, because if we wouldn't, you would expose yourself to numerous mental challenges.
     
  7. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Female "circumcision" =/= Male circumcision - by any stretch of the imagination. Read "A Caged Virgin" and educate yourself. The female version is beyond barbaric and is done to satisfy insecure males that their women cannot enjoy sex and are therefore less likely to cheat on husbands. It is often done with pieces of broken glass bottles, in horribly unclean circumstances. It is mutilation.

    So take your pomposity and shove it where the sun does not shine!
     
    Goomba and (deleted member) like this.
  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I found this history

    http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=31

    If you want to get the full articles and history go to the link.
     
  9. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You have a hope in bloody hell on banning male circumcision; it's a religious thing and therefore no government will change the law. This is the simple fact of the matter. Additionally, the vast majority of males who are circumcised as babies go on to have normal sex lives. This cannot be said of female mutilation. This has no history in religion and prevents a woman from having a normal sex life.

    I would place my energies in the more important of the two issues; the one where laws are more likely enacted.
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    well I am not actively involved on this project. I was reading on another forum how it significant decreased sexual pleasure for men never mind the fact that it is a brutal treatment on a tiny child.

    Here's another site. You may also be interested in the myths section on the left side.

    http://www.coloradonocirc.org/index.php
     
  11. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,189
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jan i don't really see what your problem is.

    Okay there are more muslims and they are circumcising their sons.

    How is this a failure of secularism or multiculturalism?

    Yes performing cosmetic surgery on the genitalia of infants is wrong.

    Yes there needs to be a proactive response to the issue, I would favour public information campaigns against it but I think that a ban simmilar to that against FGM could be an option.

    But I don't see how this is a failure of multiculturalism? Have we tried to get them to stop? Have we made it clear that the practice is unaccpetable?

    Lef, there are many different forms of FGM. Some are seen to be analogous to male circumcision. The removal of the clitoral hood beeing somewhat similar to the removal of the foreskin. It is a cosmetic change which does not hugely reduce sexual pleasure.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

    Complete infibulation is rather different.



    They are all creepy and wrong and barbaric but some are much worse than others.
     
  12. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Leffe,...

    You know, as you can read in my OP I'm feeling pretty bad and confused because I'm challenging myself intellectually.

    You would be wise to do the same.

    It is not because male circumcision has been "clinicalized" and "medicalized" it is any less barbaric.

    Circumcision, male and female, is mutilation and infringmenent on the individual. Case closed.

    What you are basically raging against is the underdevelopedness (?) of certain cultures, as compared to ours. Meanwhile, you have no problem whatsoever with an other sort of circumcision preformed in an operating theatre by a certified doctor while it is preformed for the excact same reason.

    That is, Leffe, hypocrisy to the highest degree.

    We even give male pigs more rights (as in: no castration anymore, or at least they need to be given tranquilizers) than newborn male babies.

    And I don't see any sign of pomposity on my part whatsoever -- it is not my fault you lack arguments to make a comprehensive post on this topic. :twocents:
     
  13. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    This is not a religious debate, well -- it shouldn't ought to be one. Let it put me that way...

    In the classic nature/nurture debate upon humanity -- some argue that children, in essence, are a tabula rasa.

    I agree on that, to a certain degree.

    Religion, or religious beliefs, is an entire belief system that is thaught to the individual via all sort of ways, institutions, etc.

    Now,...

    Where is the religious freedom of the child -- where is the freedom of the individual to make the choice for himself if he believes in all of this hocus-pocus and that, for the sake of being a "good follower of the faith", he needs to cut off his foreskin?

    Jews basically do it as a sacrifice to Jaweh, Muslims mainly do it because of it being a cultural tradition and because the Prohpher said something about it (although, converts don't have to obide this "law").

    The thing is, that removing the foreskin is not like dying your hair or piercing the ears. It is forever, and it can't be restored. It has an enormous impact.

    It is not something trivial.

    Even, if it were a religious thing -- I don't see the validity in your argument either. Is it, because it is a *religious* (barbaric) practice we somehow need to be tolerant towards it? Yeah, what's next then, if we follow that line of logic? That way, doctors ought to be allowed to preform female circumcision in state-funded hospitals by state-paid medical staff. Or now the mayor will be inclined to marry a man and his three wives.

    Where do you draw the line?

    As far as I'm concerned, this isn't a religious issue -- it is about basic (human) rights. Parents nowadays are not allowed to slap their children around, but they are allowed to cut of the foresking of their male newborns.

    Talk about twisted and moral decay!
     
  14. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Please stop throwing around your childish and petty little insults, I presume this had something to do with your recent ban.

    My point is simple. You have zero chance of banning male circumcision; it is ingrained in the jewish religion and is therefore untouchable.

    Female mutilation is significantly worse, significantly! On two fronts:

    1) The intent: The intent is to prevent women from enjoying sex, as the men in this society do not trust women not to cheat on them.

    2) It is done behind closed doors, by (*)(*)(*)(*)ing butchers, in unsterile conditions.

    I do not agree with any form of this, male or female, I'm simply more interested in dealing with the more pressing issue, which is female mutilation. And I'll say for the 3rd time - you will not change the laws regarding male circumcision.
     
  15. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Did you not make it a religious thing by naming the thread on Muslims, Secularism and Failures of Multiculturalism?

    According to the history I found my dad probably got it done to him as an adult when he was in WW2.

    I remember when I was in Canada in the 70's the people I was staying with had a baby and they had it circumcised because they wanted him 'to look like everyone else'

    Some people went for circumcision as they believed it stopped masturbation and supposedly to stop diseases. Now possibly the only reason left is religion but I hardly see it as having anything to do with multiculturalism as so much of the West has been up to it for so long. Why not just a debate on circumcision? Why relate it to Muslims and to the failure of Multiculturalism. Not only that there are always plenty of people who argue in favour of circumcision for men and I very much doubt they are all Muslims or Jews (who you did not even put in)
     
  16. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I haven't said it SHOULD be a religious issue, I'm saying it is. I'm an atheist and a secularist (you should know that), so I'm hardly in favour of this, I'm just realistic.
     
  17. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well, I give my point of view -- you raise some interesting points...

    Okay there are more muslims and they are circumcising their sons.

    How is this a failure of secularism or multiculturalism?

    Well, Ryanm34 -- I never said I favoured a ban, now did I? Well, at least not initially. If we would impose a ban, they would just take all of their children to Morrocco or Tunisia or something.

    I've got a gruwesome story to tell.

    As you might know, or not -- I often worked student jobs involving children (3-16 y.o.). One time, I worked for the Flemish Ministry in their offices in Antwerp to take care of the children of the civil servants. Anyways, there was a boy and a girl from Muslim descent. The mother and father were awefully nice. They also told me that it was the first time their son (6 y.o.) actually liked coming to day care because there was a male supervising; mostly it all are women and they are pretty lame (drawing, reading,...) instead of playing more "rough" games like football, baseball, etc. Anyways, children can be extremely funny and enormously politically incorrect. As the saying goes: "De waarheid komt uit een kindermond" (or: "The truth comes out of a child's mouth"). Anyways, the subject was "holiday" -- and the brother and sister started talking about how they go to Morrocco every year to visit their grandparents and eat ice-cream, etc. And then, out of the blue, the boy starts talking about his visit last year and his circumcision! :omfg: How it hurt and how he was crying, but then his uncle said that brave boys don't cry and that he would get a present and that he then received a small present first, he stopped crying, and received the big present. And his uncle and grandpa told nice things to him. I guess, the entire story made him feel proud of him "being a big boy now". Needless to say, I was freaking out completely back then... although the entire episode only lasted a minute or so.

    So, a ban wouldn't help initially. We could make it harder though, e.g. mortuarium on all circumcisions under the age of twelve.

    And a public information campaign is very neccessary, indeed. That is how I would like the government to procceed.

    The title of the thread needs to be seen in the bigger picture, Ryan. Only read a couple of posts in this thread, like Leffe's. There is a failure to address certain barbaric practices for the sake of political correctness and to preserve "the peace" -- instead of doing the right thing, which is what secularism is all about in my perspective.
     
  18. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For non-jews and non-muslims in Eurpoe I think it's not common. In the US, christians are mainly circumcised.

    In this regard, I have no problem with Jap pointing out that indeed it looks like ME immigrants are bringing this practice over. But we didn't complain so much when jews were doing it (and they've lived in Europe a very long time). Of course the muslims are in Europe in significant enough numbers to raise the statistics now. But, there's nothing that either can or will be done.

    I would urge people to read "The Caged Virgin", a book which details the horrible practice of female mutilation in the NL. I believe it would focus people's attention on to a far more serious issue.
     
  19. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Under the age of 12? So the child still don't have a choice but now gets to remember having a bit of his dick being cut off! No thanks! I for one would not want that sort of memory living in my brain!
     
  20. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Leffe, I'd like you to point out how I insulted you or threw around childish slurs. Thanks on advance, you can send me a PM if you wished so -- either way, the effort on your part would be highly appreciated by myself. But, please, don't go out and around and make rather strange assumptions on the dealings between myself and the moderators. :twocents:

    It is entirely strange that you consider female circumcision the "more pressing issue".

    It is pretty clear, that "thinking for oneself" has lost his swagger in our respective socities. How on Earth can you call female circumcision the more pressing issue, when the entire practice is rather rare to begin with -- certain in our lands -- whilst male circumcision is rountinly, systematically, and on an enormous scale (+1300%, to a total of 40% of all newborns) being conducted?
     
  21. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Could it be that there are statistics on the male version, but not in the female version? Read the book I've pointed out - there is a huge, underground issue with this in the NL.
     
  22. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Leffe, that is entire point...

    It would stop immediately.

    In Belgium, we should order the CLB's (Centrum Leerlingen Begeleiding -- Centre Pupil Guidance) that they doctors during check-ups of the student body control this. They already check-up on your genitals anyways, so they could check a box on a piece of paper too...
     
  23. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It doesn't matter. Religious stuff like this never gets passed.

    In the NL recently, they wanted to stop the ritual slaughter of animals, but at the last minute of course failed. Why? Because these are long standing religious issues, which are incredibly hard to legislate against.
     
  24. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    But it is also true that it has a recent history in Europe

    Funnily enough the decline for it in the UK appears to have had nothing to do with morals or medical information but more to do with the introduction of the NHS and them charging for it

    http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=31

    I would not be surprised if you looked at a date near 1900 or 1940 you would have far more of them going on including FGM for neurosis. I so do not see what this has to do with multiculturalism. Like you have said in the states Christians do it. We only have about 2,000,000 Christians in the UK. Obviously the US has a much larger proportion...although so did we in when the NHS came into being we were a far more Christian Country and that didn't stop people stop having them when they had to pay for them.

    I can understand it being put in as a relationship between Religions and Circumcision but not between multiculturalism and circumcision. This thread is not on FGM which when brought in comes from old tribal customs not religion. In this country Religious leaders talk to people coming in and tell them it does not belong to their region. However this is not about FGM it is about male circumcision.

    For too long circumcision has just been allowed to happen without anyone thinking of the right of the child both to avoid the pain at the time and to have sexual fulfilment in later life.
     
  25. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,189
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, at least not initially.
    Jan I never said you did I made the suggestion.

    The British government has criminalized not only FGM within Britain but FGM performed on any British
    citizen or resident anywhere in the world. It is also a crime to remove a child from the jurisdiction with the intent of having them mutilated.

    A moratorium is a form of ban, of course you can't ban the practice outright. there are cases in which circumcision is a medical necessity.

    What? How has the failure to address the issue been caused by Political correctness?

    In the US circumcision is extremely common, it is a cultural practice and recent attempts to restrict it have been condemned for being PC.

    For a lot of people it is not seen as a big deal (I'm not saying it isn't an issue i am just saying it is often low priority).

    Multiculturalism wasn't seen to be failing when Jewish families were performing it. It is only an ill of multiculturalism when it is a Muslim practice.
     

Share This Page