+ Reply to Thread
+ Post New Thread
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 43

Thread: In defense of the Catholic Church

  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    I think you just got the wrong history, or you're just getting one side. Indeed, anyone that wants to believe the Church is satanic, or the whore of Babylon are going to believe the most horrible things about it and/or dismiss or marginalize all the good things which the Church has done throughout history.
    Naw .. the history is both correct and terrible and there is over 1000 years of it.

    Whether it is the Papal Bulls legislating the use of Torture and then burning of folks, the persecution of Jews, the genocide of the Cathars, the forced conversion by the sword by Charlamange, or the "thousands" of other examples of Church instigated behaviour that was "anti-Christ" .. the history is undeniable.

    I am not necessarily saying that this was directly "of the Devil" .. but it was definately against the teachings of Christ. "do unto others" and so on.
    Last edited by Giftedone; Feb 19 2012 at 07:24 PM.

  2. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Giftedone View Post
    Naw .. the history is both correct and terrible and there is over 1000 years of it.

    Whether it is the Papal Bulls legislating the use of Torture and then burning of folks, the persecution of Jews, the genocide of the Cathars, the forced conversion by the sword by Charlamange, or the "thousands" of other examples of Church instigated behaviour that was "anti-Christ" .. the history is undeniable.

    I am not necessarily saying that this was directly "of the Devil" .. but it was definately against the teachings of Christ. "do unto others" and so on.
    I will be the first to admit that the Church has done much wrong in the past, but you can't really believe it was like that for 1000 straight years. There were many bad Popes, and there were many great Popes. Just as you have many good Christians, and many bad Christians.

    Jews were targeted for non religious reasons as well. As the Jews of Europe were really savvy with money, money people owed them money, killing the Jew was a way of taking care of debts. During the Crusades when many peasants were running around killing Jews, several bishops did what they could to protect them, and they were attacked as well. During the black plague, there was some crazy Catholic group known as the Flagellants. They believed that what had happened with the plague was due to man's sinfulness and preached repentance. There was nothing wrong with that, but the group started attacking, and killing Jews. The Pope at the time officially condemned the group, and had them put to death.

    You can say what you want about Charlemagne, but the very reason why we even have a European civilization is due to Charlemagne. He did a lot to help bring Europe out of the so called dark ages. There was even a brief glimmer in this dark age in his attempt to bring back learning. The Carolingian Renaissance is named after him. Unfortunately his attempts to bring Europe out of the dark ages was ruined by the Viking and Magyar invasions. Not Christianity.

    Now, I don't want to make it sound like I'm simply marginalizing all the bad done by the Church, but just presenting another side. I think you're history is very one sided.
    Last edited by MrConservative; Feb 19 2012 at 09:21 PM.
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  3. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    History is what it is it’s just that some chose to ignore the part they don't like. And when I said the Catholic Church it does not mean that I am referring those who never took part in the atrocities or was not born then......I am referring to those in position of leadership in that organization that sanctioned murders and killings of true Christians as well as none Christians. And even in the deepest and darkest pit of Satan's domain God has His representatives there.......it’s God's intention to take back from Satan what is not his by right and give it back to man.
    Regarding history, we all have a bias. I think too many people though get their history from unhistorical sources, such as Church pamphlets, or anti-Catholic sources online.

    A lot of these so called "true Christians" have nothing in common with modern day Protestantism. Groups such as the Donatists, Novations, Anabaptists, Waldenses, and Albegensis.

    Now what I'm wondering is what is the true Church? Was it the Catholic Church, and then they went so corrupt, that Martin Luther had to bring Christianity back to its roots, or do you believe that Catholicism is an invention of Constantine?
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laffy View Post
    Who, exactly, is a "true" Christian?

    There are over 30,000 sects because NONE of them can agree on ANYTHING. and the best part about it is, they ALL say it's OBVIOUS that THEY have it right.

    LOL!!

    The ones that live as Jesus lived.....they don't hate their enemy, they don't go to war, they let God fight their battles.

    Matthew 5:9-12 (ASV)
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
    10 Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.

    When Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem He set an example of how we should live....even when He was dying on the cross He ask His Father to forgive His those who hated Him.

    Jesus said we know a person by their deeds.


    Matthew 7:15-20 (MontgomeryNT)
    15 "Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but within they are ravening wolves."
    16 "By their fruits you will know them. Are grapes gathered of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
    17 "No, every good tree bears good fruit, but a worthless tree bears bad fruit."
    18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit; neither can a worthless tree bear good fruit."
    19 "Every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire."
    20 "Hence it is by their fruit you will know them."

    So if you see those who claim to be Christians are not doing what Jesus said and lived then you will know that they are not what they claim to be. One of my saying is this; true Christians don’t persecute they get persecuted.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    Regarding history, we all have a bias. I think too many people though get their history from unhistorical sources, such as Church pamphlets, or anti-Catholic sources online.

    A lot of these so called "true Christians" have nothing in common with modern day Protestantism. Groups such as the Donatists, Novations, Anabaptists, Waldenses, and Albegensis.

    Now what I'm wondering is what is the true Church? Was it the Catholic Church, and then they went so corrupt, that Martin Luther had to bring Christianity back to its roots, or do you believe that Catholicism is an invention of Constantine?
    What the Roman Catholic Church did is a matter of historical fact, it’s just easier for you to say what you say than face up to the fact of what it did. And as I said before, they are going to do it again.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    The ones that live as Jesus lived....


    Then that leaves out 95% of the "Christians" in this country.

    They treat gays like dog food and try to ram their "morals" down everyone else's throats....all while ignoring the ones they don't like.

  7. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    What the Roman Catholic Church did is a matter of historical fact, it’s just easier for you to say what you say than face up to the fact of what it did. And as I said before, they are going to do it again.
    So, what specifically did the Catholic Church do? And what are they going to do again?
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    I'm not convinced with the argument that the Catholic Church itself is a force for good. While the negatives tend to come from the hierarchy of the Church, the good (and there is lots of good) comes from people who happen to be Catholic, sometimes restricted by doctrine and diktat from the top (such as unmoving positions on abortion or contraception).

    The child abuse issue is an example as the problem wasn't the scale of abuse within Catholic organisations but the active efforts by the hierarchy to cover it up and preventing offenders and suspects being properly handled by the appropriate legal processes.
    Yes but the power, and ultimately the future, of the RCC comes from its adherents and followers. As society changes, so has the Catholic Church, however slowly, for the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    Incidentally, your reference [1] doesn't support your statement that the rates of abuse is higher in US public schools than Catholic schools. It's an opinion piece, focuses and the UK and gives no statistics at all.
    Oh sorry. I'll try and find a source with the fact I gave.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  9. Default

    I think I should say a few things about my OP.

    First and foremost, its come to my attention source [1] didnt have the statistic I referred to. This fact, about sexual assault in public schools, can be read here:
    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/.../5/01552.shtml
    http://www.predatormastersforums.com...Number=1946790

    Second thing I want to say is that I think the Catholic Church is a force for good today. My analysis refers to the only period of the Church's history that should seriously concern us - the present.

    Thirdly, yes it is very much a fact the Church was, at certain times, an overwhelming force for evil, but as enforcer, spreader and encourager of immoral acts, as well as healer and assistant to disasters of human history. As I say though that history only concerns us where it helps us understand the present, and in that regard a judgment of the church need only apply today, where it finds a result that shines a positive light on the church.
    Last edited by MegadethFan; Feb 20 2012 at 04:03 AM.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revol View Post
    How is it possible that so many on this forum are so inept at reading and understanding?
    Do you actually think Missionary work entered into Africa and dealt with violent tribes?.....
    Do you think they dealt with the Arab slave trade?
    Let us understand that the Arab slave trade pitted tribes against one other, promoting and increasing tribal violence..... When people say that Africans sold their own people into slavery, this is only true on the very surface of understanding.
    Slavery spread further south like a disease from Arabic Nations that established the violence surrounding the raid and capture of neighboring tribes.
    No when the Arabs arrived the Africans already had slavery, Like most religions around the world, Islam was incorporated into Africa largely to the extent it sustained existing cultural norms - slavery included. My point here was that when you said the Africans were all peacefully enlightened, that was totally false.

    Quote Originally Posted by revol View Post
    Christian missionaries involved regions of hugely nomadic and 'relatively' peaceful tribes; mostly unspoiled by the ravages of the Arab slave trade.
    Could you give some examples? Could you also provide some historical references about the "relatively peaceful", "unspoiled tribes" you refer to?

    Quote Originally Posted by revol View Post
    Famine effects the Sub-Saharan region of Africa and is not a part of the Arab world.
    There is a reason that this region was highly nomadic, tribes followed their food and water sources just like all of life in these regions..... Hence why I said in perfect harmony with nature!
    'Civilization' and the slave trade (specific mostly to the northern regions) destroyed this harmony....
    But you dont seem to understand that slave trading was ALREADY THERE. As for "civilization" the Africans had their own to dish out violence., Now yes, of course the Western and Arab forces that they encountered offered there own, almost always severely more violent interpretations of ordered living for Africans, but again this doesn't prove your point and I dont see how it is relevant to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by revol View Post
    Christianity and it's missionary work is responsible for destroying the natural harmony of the largely peaceful tribes in Africa.
    Well, no. Some missionaries were violent, or brought violence with them, sure., But the overwhelming majority had sincere intentions of preaching and assisting people, not the reverse. As I noted it is this same missionary work that is alleviating hardships today. Would you prefer they just upped and left?

    Quote Originally Posted by revol View Post
    Now enter the Dutch influence of Christianity on these cultures which divided these people according to the shape of the nose and skin color.....
    They actually measured the nose that was more aesthetically similar and pleasing to their own and separated them giving them favor and power over the 'savage' darker color and wider bridge of the nose.
    The violence in Africa through 'ethnic' tension that exists even today is the result of the 'Christian' initiative.
    Famine exists because Christianity established their communities in order to 'spread' the word of Christ removing the more stable nomadic qualities (response to environment) of it's people.
    Learn and understand your History people!
    All of this was done in the name of Christianity and it is a product of it.
    What you incorrectly attribute to Christianity is imperialism. Christianity was certainly used to prop it up through manipulation, just like Islam's use in the Mid East, but that doesn't mean Christianity was the source, or cause of imperialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by revol View Post
    Do we now turn our backs on what Christianity has produced in Africa, or is it our moral obligation to right what has been wronged?
    Why dont you ask Christians today? Many are actually doing something to change it. And no, Christians dont need to take responsibility for the crimes others have committed in the name of Christianity, just like Muslims dont need to apologize for 9/11 - because none of these people actually had anything to do with these crimes!
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

+ Reply to Thread
+ Post New Thread
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. This Could End The Catholic Church
    By kmisho in forum Religion & Philosophy
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: Jun 25 2012, 03:57 AM
  2. Attack on the Catholic Church -- From the Right
    By Blackrook in forum Religion & Philosophy
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Oct 05 2011, 03:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks