+ Reply to Thread
+ Post New Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 43

Thread: In defense of the Catholic Church

  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laffy View Post
    Then that leaves out 95% of the "Christians" in this country.

    They treat gays like dog food and try to ram their "morals" down everyone else's throats....all while ignoring the ones they don't like.
    Well, Jesus did say that many would be decived even though they would believe He was the Christ.

    Matthew 24:11 (AMP)
    11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive and lead many into error.

    Matthew 15:9 (ASV)
    9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

    Matthew 24:5 (ASV)
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

    It is very easy to decieve religous people because they are not interested in studying the Bible.....they more willing to listen to and believe what ever some religious figure head tells them. Jesus said His sheep (followers) listen to Him and follow Him.

    John 10:27 (ASV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    It is impossible to deceive them because they will flee from the deceiver just as a sheep would flee from a stranger.

    John 10:1-5 (ASV)
    1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
    2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


    Throughout Jesus' ministry He told parables and the parable of the wheat and the tare was one of them.

    Matthew 13:24-30 (AMP)
    24 Another parable He set forth before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
    25 But while he was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed also darnel (weeds resembling wheat) among the wheat, and went on his way.
    26 So when the plants sprouted and formed grain, the darnel (weeds) appeared also.
    27 And the servants of the owner came to him and said, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then how does it have darnel shoots in it?
    28 He replied to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and weed them out?
    29 But he said, No, lest in gathering the wild wheat (weeds resembling wheat), you root up the [true] wheat along with it.
    30 Let them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will say to the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary.

    In the same way most of us are unable to tell the difference between a wheat and a tare, so it is that most people cannot always tell the difference between a true Christian and one that is not.......they assume that just because a group or a people come under the banner of Christianity it automatically mean that they are whom they claim they say they are.


    But Jesus said we know someone by what they do.

    Matthew 7:15-20 (ASV)
    15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
    16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    Regardless of your position on the environment this helps to reduce green house emission

    WWW.EnhancedPerformance.MySyntek.com

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    So, what specifically did the Catholic Church do? And what are they going to do again?
    They sanctioned the persecuting and murder of others that did not share their belief. True Christians were used as entertainment in the arena as hungry lions rip limbs and flesh from bones as spectators cheered. They did not did it themselves.....the State did it through that Church. All you have to do is studying the history of the Roman Church and its influence over the various kings, and what they did with the blessing of the Roman Church. And just as they empowered the State to do what they did in the past they will do the same again.
    Regardless of your position on the environment this helps to reduce green house emission

    WWW.EnhancedPerformance.MySyntek.com

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    They sanctioned the persecuting and murder of others that did not share their belief.
    For a time, sure, but today they dont, quite the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    True Christians were used as entertainment in the arena as hungry lions rip limbs and flesh from bones as spectators cheered.
    Many of those 'True Christians' were Catholics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    They did not did it themselves.....the State did it through that Church. All you have to do is studying the history of the Roman Church and its influence over the various kings, and what they did with the blessing of the Roman Church. And just as they empowered the State to do what they did in the past they will do the same again.
    Why would they do the same again? Furthermore, how would this outweigh the staggering good done through charitable action?
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post

    Second thing I want to say is that I think the Catholic Church is a force for good today.

    I guess you missed all the stories where the Church ran the biggest kiddie rapist ring in the world.

    And, they are one of THE biggest of gay bashing.

    Not only that, they continue to tell AIDS-ravaged Africa not to use condoms.

  5. #35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    They sanctioned the persecuting and murder of others that did not share their belief. True Christians were used as entertainment in the arena as hungry lions rip limbs and flesh from bones as spectators cheered. They did not did it themselves.....the State did it through that Church. All you have to do is studying the history of the Roman Church and its influence over the various kings, and what they did with the blessing of the Roman Church. And just as they empowered the State to do what they did in the past they will do the same again.
    Christians were persecuted because they refused to renounce their faith and worship Ceasar. It ended with Constantine's Edict of Milan.

    I have studied history, and I'm afraid it's not as simple as you'd like to believe. The unquestioned power of certain Popes over the kings and Emperors represented a very limited portion of history during the high middle ages under such popes as Innocent III.

    I suggest you try reading up on the early Church Fathers. Much of what they Believed were in fact Catholic teachings, and some of these writings go back to the earliest centuries of Christianity.
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    Christians were persecuted because they refused to renounce their faith and worship Ceasar. It ended with Constantine's Edict of Milan.

    I have studied history, and I'm afraid it's not as simple as you'd like to believe. The unquestioned power of certain Popes over the kings and Emperors represented a very limited portion of history during the high middle ages under such popes as Innocent III.
    Does your study of history include how the Vatican collaborated with Fascism? Even the Bible tells us that a false Church would come about and persecute God's true Church. Now which Church can we point to that claims to be God's Church that have persecuted Christians other than the Catholic Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    I suggest you try reading up on the early Church Fathers. Much of what they Believed were in fact Catholic teachings, and some of these writings go back to the earliest centuries of Christianity.
    I don't know who are referring to as the early Church Fathers, but I know that what the early Church as recorded in the Bible believed is completely different than what is taught in the Catholic Church. For example, Mary the mother of Jesus was not revered nor was she referred to as a virgin after she gave birth to Jesus.....Jesus was her first born and not her only child. The Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man and that person is Jesus, not Mary. We don’t pray to Mary, we pray to God in Jesus’ name….Mary is dead Jesus is not. I could go on and on...
    Regardless of your position on the environment this helps to reduce green house emission

    WWW.EnhancedPerformance.MySyntek.com

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    I will be the first to admit that the Church has done much wrong in the past, but you can't really believe it was like that for 1000 straight years. There were many bad Popes, and there were many great Popes. Just as you have many good Christians, and many bad Christians.

    Jews were targeted for non religious reasons as well. As the Jews of Europe were really savvy with money, money people owed them money, killing the Jew was a way of taking care of debts. During the Crusades when many peasants were running around killing Jews, several bishops did what they could to protect them, and they were attacked as well. During the black plague, there was some crazy Catholic group known as the Flagellants. They believed that what had happened with the plague was due to man's sinfulness and preached repentance. There was nothing wrong with that, but the group started attacking, and killing Jews. The Pope at the time officially condemned the group, and had them put to death.

    You can say what you want about Charlemagne, but the very reason why we even have a European civilization is due to Charlemagne. He did a lot to help bring Europe out of the so called dark ages. There was even a brief glimmer in this dark age in his attempt to bring back learning. The Carolingian Renaissance is named after him. Unfortunately his attempts to bring Europe out of the dark ages was ruined by the Viking and Magyar invasions. Not Christianity.

    Now, I don't want to make it sound like I'm simply marginalizing all the bad done by the Church, but just presenting another side. I think you're history is very one sided.
    I also get that the Church has been a force for Good. Folks that get together at Church regularly are provided both a social support network and a medium for personal and spiritual growth. This is very hard to find in society these days. It is hard to decscribe the sense of kinship with ones fellow man that can be developed in a good Church environment.

    What I rail against is the misuse of the pulpit. That pulpit can be a powerful force for either good or evil.

    Misuse of that pulpit today is rampant and almost the rule rather than the exception in some denominations.

    There are specific reasons for this, some of which is encompased in these simple rules:

    1) no human speaks for God
    2) there is a difference between having a belief and forcing that belief on others.
    3) no human knows what awaits in heaven.

    Follow these 3 simple rules and we get rid of sharia law, both in the Middle East and the West, and we get rid of suicide bombers.

  8. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFSmith@764 View Post
    Does your study of history include how the Vatican collaborated with Fascism? Even the Bible tells us that a false Church would come about and persecute God's true Church. Now which Church can we point to that claims to be God's Church that have persecuted Christians other than the Catholic Church?
    Evil acts by any church does not make the church itself evil, just human. Now as far as Nazi Germany, the only real criticism is that Pope Pius XII is that he was complicit. Fear to speak out too much against the Nazis due to threats of Christian and even more severe persecution of the Jews. The Vatican actually did a lot for the Jews, saving at least 600,000 of them. The Pope had Churches be used as sanctuaries for the Jews. It should be noted that Rome's chief rabbi had changed to Pius XII's Christian name Eugenio, and upon the Pontiff's death in 1958, he was praised by Israel's Prime Minister Golda Meir.



    I don't know who are referring to as the early Church Fathers, but I know that what the early Church as recorded in the Bible believed is completely different than what is taught in the Catholic Church. For example, Mary the mother of Jesus was not revered nor was she referred to as a virgin after she gave birth to Jesus.....Jesus was her first born and not her only child. The Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man and that person is Jesus, not Mary. We don’t pray to Mary, we pray to God in Jesus’ name….Mary is dead Jesus is not. I could go on and on...[/QUOTE]

    The writings of the Church Fathers are vast collection of wrightings by several popes, bishops, and priests ranging from Clement of Rome(whose in the Bible by the way) from the late 1st Century to John of Demascus in 750.

    Nowhere in the Gospel is Christ's brothers/brethren refered to as Mary's children, but Jesus is. If he really did have brothers, then why would he entrust John the evangelist to the care of his mother. There was also no Hebrew equivalent for the word brother. These 'breatheren' of Jesus where relatives, most likely cousins of Jesus. The first born of any Jewish family only implied that there were no other children before him and was promised the father's inheritance.

    Doesn't the fact that Mary gave birth to Christ make her a mediator to him? It was because of her acceptance to give birth to Christ that we have Christ in the first place. Catholics believe that Mary was immaculately conceived. Basically, Christ could not have been born out of sinful flesh, so Mary was conceived without original sin. She is God's most perfect creation, yet she is still human, meaning that only through the grace of God was she allowed to be conceived without original sin.
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    Evil acts by any church does not make the church itself evil, just human. Now as far as Nazi Germany, the only real criticism is that Pope Pius XII is that he was complicit. Fear to speak out too much against the Nazis due to threats of Christian and even more severe persecution of the Jews. The Vatican actually did a lot for the Jews, saving at least 600,000 of them. The Pope had Churches be used as sanctuaries for the Jews. It should be noted that Rome's chief rabbi had changed to Pius XII's Christian name Eugenio, and upon the Pontiff's death in 1958, he was praised by Israel's Prime Minister Golda Meir.

    Evil acts by the Church does not make it evil? What does it make it then? Good? So then people who do evil acts they are not evil accoring to your logic. Evil is from Satan, so when a Church commits evil it is doing the work of Satan.

    Jesus said He would build His Church He did not say He was going to build Church. This means there will be Churches that is not His. But do you know when Jesus spoke of His Church what He meant? We have a record in the New Testament of Jesus' Church and nowhere in it does it tell us that it was involved in persisting others, but it was persecuted. Jesus' Church has always been the one that was persecuted for doing what Jesus commanded them to do. Tell me, when, where and what time has the Roman Catholic Church been ever persecuted for preaching the gospel?


    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    The writings of the Church Fathers are vast collection of wrightings by several popes, bishops, and priests ranging from Clement of Rome(whose in the Bible by the way) from the late 1st Century to John of Demascus in 750.
    Well, they are your Church fathers not ours......it is the Bible that we regard as the authority of God's words.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrConservative View Post
    Nowhere in the Gospel is Christ's brothers/brethren refered to as Mary's children, but Jesus is. If he really did have brothers, then why would he entrust John the evangelist to the care of his mother. There was also no Hebrew equivalent for the word brother. These 'breatheren' of Jesus where relatives, most likely cousins of Jesus. The first born of any Jewish family only implied that there were no other children before him and was promised the father's inheritance.

    Doesn't the fact that Mary gave birth to Christ make her a mediator to him? It was because of her acceptance to give birth to Christ that we have Christ in the first place. Catholics believe that Mary was immaculately conceived. Basically, Christ could not have been born out of sinful flesh, so Mary was conceived without original sin. She is God's most perfect creation, yet she is still human, meaning that only through the grace of God was she allowed to be conceived without original sin.
    Then how is it that the Bible says that Joseph did not have sex (knew her) with Mary until she gave birth to her first born son? How come the Bible says Mary gave birth to her first born son? If Jesus was Mary's only child it would not say "her first born." For there to be a first there must be at least one that comes after.


    Matthew 1:25 (WesleyNT)
    25 But he knew her not, till she had brought forth her Son, the first-born. And he called his name Jesus.


    Luke 2:7 (NASB77)
    7 And she gave birth to her first-born son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.


    First-born - prōtotokos = first-born :- firstbegotten (-born)
    Last edited by BFSmith@764; Feb 22 2012 at 03:03 AM.
    Regardless of your position on the environment this helps to reduce green house emission

    WWW.EnhancedPerformance.MySyntek.com

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    No when the Arabs arrived the Africans already had slavery, Like most religions around the world, Islam was incorporated into Africa largely to the extent it sustained existing cultural norms - slavery included. My point here was that when you said the Africans were all peacefully enlightened, that was totally false.


    Could you give some examples? Could you also provide some historical references about the "relatively peaceful", "unspoiled tribes" you refer to?


    But you dont seem to understand that slave trading was ALREADY THERE. As for "civilization" the Africans had their own to dish out violence., Now yes, of course the Western and Arab forces that they encountered offered there own, almost always severely more violent interpretations of ordered living for Africans, but again this doesn't prove your point and I dont see how it is relevant to the OP.


    Well, no. Some missionaries were violent, or brought violence with them, sure., But the overwhelming majority had sincere intentions of preaching and assisting people, not the reverse. As I noted it is this same missionary work that is alleviating hardships today. Would you prefer they just upped and left?


    All of this was done in the name of Christianity and it is a product of it.
    What you incorrectly attribute to Christianity is imperialism. Christianity was certainly used to prop it up through manipulation, just like Islam's use in the Mid East, but that doesn't mean Christianity was the source, or cause of imperialism.
    I'm truly not going to enter a pointless diatribe arguing about a historical aspect of influence on a people and what it has become as a result.....
    It is unimportant to how it should be viewed in today's world.

    There were no settlements or moves towards colonization without the direct influence of the church.
    How interested that you actually believe a God fearing Christian nation could perform a single act without or against the true desire of the church……
    Imperialism like it can exist outside of these desires?….. Does the word of God compromise itself to the desires of men?
    The reality is that the Catholic church was clamoring to enter Africa in order to colonize it and establish it's 'moral' hierarchy within it.
    So when was the church ever a true expression of itself?
    When was it ever not corrupt by it's leaders within it's own agenda?
    Where did this moral hierarchy as the commanding voice of God exist in the imperial acts that were performed against any 'free' nation of peoples if it was truly against it?
    Every act of the church throughout history is a reflection of it's structure and political stance of where it exists today…. And yes, as an expression of this establishment, it is undeniably responsible for it's history and righting what has been wronged in it and by it.


    Why dont you ask Christians today? Many are actually doing something to change it. And no, Christians dont need to take responsibility for the crimes others have committed in the name of Christianity, just like Muslims dont need to apologize for 9/11 - because none of these people actually had anything to do with these crimes!
    Throwing scraps to a nation of people laying in waste is hardly an effort to enact change and a severe compromise to any act of moral truth.
    Last edited by revol; Feb 22 2012 at 06:16 AM.

+ Reply to Thread
+ Post New Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. This Could End The Catholic Church
    By kmisho in forum Religion & Philosophy
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: Jun 25 2012, 02:57 AM
  2. Attack on the Catholic Church -- From the Right
    By Blackrook in forum Religion & Philosophy
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Oct 05 2011, 02:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks