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Thread: Germany is cutting solar-power subsidies because they are expensive and inefficient

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesguy View Post
    Specious, it doesn't change the fact that the actual cost includes the subsidy.
    No the subsidy is for german consumers, any export abroad are unsubsidized.

    Its like most US weapon programs. It foreign export are designed to lessen the burden of defense on the USA itself.

    And they have been addressed, peak residential is after the sun is low or not at all, commerial goes outside the peak sun hours.
    Doesnt matter, as I said solar is not meant to replace all or even the mayority of energy needs .

    And for the 11th time that means you have to have a full blown system to take over when the solar cannot produce, is losing money.
    BS, again EVERY energy system EVERY country has in the world doesnt run at 100% they are ALWAYS designed to be able to handle peak demand and are ALWAYS having parts to even large parts doing nothing or as you put it: "loose money"

    Again I gave the numbers on the economy side for consumers of solar panels, wether or not they could do more is irrelevant. thats like not buying a car because you dont use it 100% of the time.


    How much of it?
    Currently germany has around 4% if I am not mistaken.


    Yes losing money when it is not producing. There is STILL overhead to pay for and the loans and bonds that were issued to build them STILL have to be paid off.
    Again I already gave the calculations without any subsidies and they clearly show profit, for the 10th time: why dont you say wich costs in germany extra.


    No about 20.
    Then 0.7% max loss (wich would be abnormal as this would put them on the brink of being replaced under warrenty)

    20 years would put the example I gave at a minimum of 85% or a non issue this will not gravely affect the income you get from them.

    Those aren't cheaper.
    The initial price is lower so yes cheaper .


    One of the areas in the US
    This topic is about germany I know you have lost the argument a long time ago and now want to change the debate and find some excuses to still want to bash solar panels, but there are very few trpocial storms in gemrnay or very few storms in germany that rips of roofs .

    As in most european countrys they are insured with the rest of the house without any extra costs .


    So not such thing as violent storms, tornadoes or hail in Germany? No one insures their homes and roofs in Germany?
    tornadoes are very rare in europe certainly ones powerfull enough to damage roofs. Panels are designed to withstand hail or violent storms.

    And yes houses are insured but as I already said this is just included in the coverage .

    Nope, the cost are never made up.
    Well then do give those costs, funny how you keep saying that but never give 1 example.

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    No its not, a gass power plant also costs money AND needs gas its entire operating life, the more power you want to more it costs.

    Not so with solar/wind and others.
    Except you have to have that gas power plant sitting next to it for when the sun don't shine and the wind ain't blowing. That's like building a restaurant to serve breakfast and then next it build another to serve lunch instead of using the same one for both.

    The issue is investing in an industry to get a profitable return on it.
    And to do that you can't have it sitting their idle most of the time.
    ""What kind of society isn't structured on greed? The problem of social organization is how to set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm; capitalism is that kind of a system"
    Milton Friedman
    ."

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    No the subsidy is for german consumers, any export abroad are unsubsidized.
    It doesn't matter what or where, subsidies to NOT eliminate the cost.
    Doesnt matter, as I said solar is not meant to replace all or even the mayority of energy needs .
    Doesn't matter it still means you have to have a full blown system capable of producing peak demand plus.


    BS, again EVERY energy system EVERY country has in the world doesnt run at 100% they are ALWAYS designed to be able to handle peak demand and are ALWAYS having parts to even large parts doing nothing or as you put it: "loose money"
    What don't you understand about a gas or an oil or a coal NOT having to have a duplicate back up system. They can be designed for 130% capacity and run 24/7, you don't have to build in 260% capacity because half you system won't be running most of the time. With a solar you have to have that. You can have a solar plant that will produce 130% but it won't do it 24/7 so you STILL have to have the gas or oil or coal or nuclear that can.


    Again I already gave the calculations without any subsidies and they clearly show profit, for the 10th time: why dont you say wich costs in germany extra.
    Specious, you can only figure the true cost with the subsidies included.

    Then 0.7% max loss (wich would be abnormal as this would put them on the brink of being replaced under warrenty)
    Prorated warranty, they can lose much more and the company won't lose money. Just like your 40,000 tire warrany, go in with 35,000 on they and you get pennys.

    Your understanding of the cost, both initial and operating, is misguided.
    ""What kind of society isn't structured on greed? The problem of social organization is how to set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm; capitalism is that kind of a system"
    Milton Friedman
    ."

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesguy View Post
    It doesn't matter what or where, subsidies to NOT eliminate the cost.
    They arent meant to do that .

    What they do cause is make the industry atractive to germans and abroad, as I said creating production and export in germany.



    Doesn't matter it still means you have to have a full blown system capable of producing peak demand plus.
    You always need this so this doesnt matter. The difference is less gas/oil imports wich does matter as they are all brought from outside


    [quote
    What don't you understand about a gas or an oil or a coal NOT having to have a duplicate back up system. They can be designed for 130% capacity and run 24/7, you don't have to build in 260% capacity because half you system won't be running most of the time. With a solar you have to have that. You can have a solar plant that will produce 130% but it won't do it 24/7 so you STILL have to have the gas or oil or coal or nuclear that can.
    [/quote]
    BS, you went from 100% solar to 50% solar NOBODY proposes 50% solar . So this is more excuses you are looking. Solar now provides several % this reduces the needs on other plants and more important lessens imports of oil and gas .


    Specious, you can only figure the true cost with the subsidies included.
    I specificly stated WITHOUT subsidies . The issue was are they now viable without subsidies, I gave the calculations .

    With subsidies the argument becomes very complex as you woul have to take all the subsidies, all the economic growth it gave and deduct ever export or lessened import .

    Prorated warranty, they can lose much more and the company won't lose money. Just like your 40,000 tire warrany, go in with 35,000 on they and you get pennys.
    No the panels get replaced .

    Your understanding of the cost, both initial and operating, is misguided.
    Then give the numbers, you keep saying this without any argument is calculation to back it up. Give specefic numbers for germany.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    They arent meant to do that .
    Doesn't matter what they are meant to do, they are still part of the cost.
    You always need this so this doesnt matter. The difference is less gas/oil imports wich does matter as they are all brought from outside
    No you don't, if I am running a coal fired plant I can build to 130% demand. I don't have to have another full blown system capable of the same sitting on the sidelines because the coal fired can run 24/7. With solar or wind you HAVE to have that duplicate capacity.

    BS, you went from 100% solar to 50% solar NOBODY proposes 50% solar . So this is more excuses you are looking. Solar now provides several % this reduces the needs on other plants and more important lessens imports of oil and gas .
    No I am at 100%, why have a system that can only produce a fraction of the power meaning you still have duplicate capacity sitting there doing nothing.

    With subsidies the argument becomes very complex as you woul have to take all the subsidies, all the economic growth it gave and deduct ever export or lessened import .
    No just take the direct subsidies.

    No the panels get replaced .
    I just scanned a few warranties and they are replacement with used panels or residual value (prorated) at the manufacturers discretion. Or a monetary equivalent to the power loss again at the manufacturers discretion.
    ""What kind of society isn't structured on greed? The problem of social organization is how to set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm; capitalism is that kind of a system"
    Milton Friedman
    ."

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesguy View Post
    Doesn't matter what they are meant to do, they are still part of the cost.
    No, you fail to understand how it works, production isnt subsidized .

    No you don't, if I am running a coal fired plant I can build to 130% demand. I don't have to have another full blown system capable of the same sitting on the sidelines because the coal fired can run 24/7. With solar or wind you HAVE to have that duplicate capacity.
    No, because we arent talking about some small unpredictable system its quite predictable and you can plan towards it. less oil/gas/coal consumption means less imports and ultimatly saves money.

    [No I am at 100%,
    Then you are still at complete BS nobody proposes 100% solar

    No just take the direct subsidies.
    And then what?


    Still havent seen 1 number or argument.

    I just scanned a few warranties and they are replacement with used panels or residual value (prorated) at the manufacturers discretion. Or a monetary equivalent to the power loss again at the manufacturers discretion.
    http://www.siliken.com/products_Guarantee.html


    1. Materials and Manufacturing Process Guarantee.
    Siliken provides a 10-year guarantee covering the materials that constitute the photovoltaic
    module as well as any possible defects in the photovoltaic module due to the manufacturing
    process.
    If during this guarantee period the photovoltaic module should cease to operate properly as a
    result of any defect caused by the materials or by the manufacturing process, Siliken reserves
    the right to opt between repairing the defective module, substituting it with another equivalent
    module or reimbursing the purchase price of the defective photovoltaic module. In the event that
    Siliken decides to repair the module, Siliken will use new components in said repair, with
    substituted components being those used by Siliken in the normal manufacturing process. The
    Materials and Manufacturing process guarantee does not guarantee a specific output power
    level.
    2. Specific Output Power Guarantee.
    Siliken guarantees that the power delivered by its modules, measured in standard test
    conditions 1, will be a
    minimum of:
    In the event that Siliken concludes that its module is not producing the guaranteed percentage
    of minimum output power specified in the table above, Siliken reserves the right to opt between
    repairing the defective module, substituting it with an equivalent Siliken module or providing
    additional components to reach the specified output power, at least to the guaranteed minimum
    percentage. In the event that Siliken decides to repair the module, Siliken will use new
    components ...


    Funny how you never provide any sources .

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    No, you fail to understand how it works, production isnt subsidized.
    No you continue to fail to understand that a subsidy does not lower the cost of something it merely shifts it to someone else.

    My quote:
    No you don't, if I am running a coal fired plant I can build to 130% demand. I don't have to have another full blown system capable of the same sitting on the sidelines because the coal fired can run 24/7. With solar or wind you HAVE to have that duplicate capacity.

    No, because we arent talking about some small unpredictable system its quite predictable and you can plan towards it. less oil/gas/coal consumption means less imports and ultimatly saves money.
    Are you just being obtuse or what. Yes you have to have a full blown system capable of supplying the capacity of the solar system sitting there idle except for the cloudy days you need it or at night. With the fossil or nuclear you do NOT have to have that idle capacity.


    Then you are still at complete BS nobody proposes 100% solar
    Doesn't matter, whatever the capacity you are trying to get from the solar you have to have duplicate redundant capacity to meet 100% of that capacity.

    http://www.siliken.com/products_Guarantee.html


    1. Materials and Manufacturing Process Guarantee.
    Siliken provides a 10-year guarantee
    What happened to the twenty year guaranty you were tauting for the twenty year life. Post a company that gives full purchase price back if they fail at 12 years, 15 years, 20 years.

    And of course the other thing to consider is how many of these companies will be in business 10 years from now, 15 years from now 20 years from now.
    ""What kind of society isn't structured on greed? The problem of social organization is how to set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm; capitalism is that kind of a system"
    Milton Friedman
    ."

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesguy View Post
    No you continue to fail to understand that a subsidy does not lower the cost of something it merely shifts it to someone else.
    Actually I dont, I never disagreed with this. What YOU fail to relise is the purpose is to shift this abroad.


    Are you just being obtuse or what. Yes you have to have a full blown system capable of supplying the capacity of the solar system sitting there idle except for the cloudy days you need it or at night. With the fossil or nuclear you do NOT have to have that idle capacity.
    Yes you do, you just dont turn of nucear power plants if demand is low, same goes for every other system you always have for the most of the time over capacity solar or no solar .


    Doesn't matter,
    Yes it does because that is the only argument you have left .


    What happened to the twenty year guaranty you were tauting for the twenty year life. Post a company that gives full purchase price back if they fail at 12 years, 15 years, 20 years.
    You never ead the source did you?

    That was just an example because you claimed they would not offer full guarantee just some small amount after a couple of years .

    2. Specific Output Power Guarantee.
    Siliken guarantees that the power delivered by its modules, measured in standard test
    conditions 1, will be a
    minimum of:
    In the event that Siliken concludes that its module is not producing the guaranteed percentage
    of minimum output power specified in the table above, Siliken reserves the right to opt between
    repairing the defective module, substituting it with an equivalent Siliken module or providing
    additional components to reach the specified output power, at least to the guaranteed minimum
    percentage. In the event that Siliken decides to repair the module, Siliken will use new
    components in said repair, with said components being those used by Siliken in its
    manufacturing process.

    Years 11 trough 25 : 80% minimum power value .


    And of course the other thing to consider is how many of these companies will be in business 10 years from now, 15 years from now 20 years from now.
    More non arguments as there is a rerason why they give so much guarantee, the panels themselves are very simple.

    And if after a decade 1 of 20-30 panels falls out and there is nobody to give warenty you still have the rest its not as if 1 panels thats worls less then optimum breaks everything.


    Again you still havent provided one credible figure or agument more non arguments simply because you have an irrational hate for solar panels.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jebediah View Post
    Look at the two maps directly above your post. Hopefully from that you can figure out why I've been scratching my head about Northern European solar installations for years. I don't even need to read your article.

    I was helping my parents look into some alternative energy upgrades for their house years ago. The first step with solar is to make sure you get enough light. After doing a very short search on the internet it became obvious to me that while it is hot where they live they do not get enough sun light year round to make the installation economically viable... and they live in a sunnier place than Germany. It's really not that hard to figure out.
    Of course you will find regions in which you can use solar power more effectively than in Germany, but you oversimplify.

    1. In Germany the region with the most sun hours per year is Usedom, an island in the North East. You can check out this fact via internet if you want. Your assumption and that you can use it most effectively within Germany in the southern region (according to your cards) is not correct. It is important, what you can collect on the ground, not what is absorbed before.

    2. It is about solar electricity, solar electricity does not have anything to do with an energy upgrade for your house, you can produce electricity but it must go into the electric supply network. What you can use directly within your house are heat collectors for warm water, but this is not the same. We talk about the prosuction of electricity which you can sell to your electric power company.

    3. You can use photovotaics more effectively in California, but you won't even get close to the prices for which you can have it via coal. While in Germany it may be ten times more expensive, maybe you can get it eight times more expensive. Consider that to the expensiveness is caused only to some parts by the effectiveness of the solar modules, but also by other factors like the grid and many other factors.
    Last edited by Glücksritter; Jul 09 2012 at 04:04 AM.
    Rather dead than red!

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    Again you still havent provided one credible figure or agument more non arguments simply because you have an irrational hate for solar panels.
    I don't think any one "hates" solar panels, What I do hate is the thought of crony capitalism and politicians spending my money so they can line their political donors pockets. I say kill all the energy subsidies. Carbon, solar, wind etc and let them fight it out.
    Last edited by jackdog; Jul 09 2012 at 04:49 AM.
    "America is more than just a place...it's an idea. It's the only country founded on an idea. 'Our rights come from nature and God, not government.' We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes." - Paul Ryan

    I find it ironic to be called a denier by people who are advocating policies which are already killing tens of thousands through energy poverty where those policies have became law. - jackdog

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