Women in Islam

Discussion in 'Human Rights' started by JohnConstantine, May 1, 2012.

  1. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Women in Islam

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    I have recently watched a talk by a British Muslim convert entitled “Women in Islam, liberated or oppressed?”

    I thought the speaker was well spoken, informed and articulate, even if I didn’t agree with the direction of her arguments. The three points that stuck out for me were: the media, which is dealt with in a sort of eye-rolling manner. She is not alone in thinking that the imagery and rhetoric in western media focuses relentlessly on the negative and the fundamentalists rather than moderate forward thinking Muslims, or any kind of positivity within the faith. She mentions the images that you get when you google “Muslim Woman” are mainly of women in full burka, protests, beatings etc. So the question is, is there an agenda within the media to demonize Islam, or does this come under the broader paradigm that bad news sells?

    The second point was that domestic violence and gender discrimination is not solely a Muslim issue. I always find myself patronised by this kind of defence, for me it coincides with that infantile old excuse “yeah but little Johnny does it all the time”… well that doesn’t make it right now does it.

    The third is scripture, which can be interpreted and infinite amount of ways, she points to the Qu’ran to gives reasons for why the Prophet honoured women and considered them equal.

    There is also the question of protest and exposure within media. Some members of the Muslim community grow tired of the images of women like Ayesha Bibi, and they say that by covering groups like Al-Shabaab, Al-Qaeda or the Taliban so constantly you actually add to their voice and demoralize those who can apportion a positive message to the faith. But why is Ayesha Bibi in the Times? To stand up to her oppressors and spread awareness about the violence perpetrated against women like her? – or to give voice to said oppressors and demonize Islam? Is it not fair to say that many Muslim men and women, very bravely, are writing and speaking out about issues within the faith and would want as much exposure from the media as possible. It seems counterproductive to say 'we don't want to see it'. But of course it is also our responsibility not to let that become the sole picture of Islam.

    P.S I can post the talk if anyone wishes, but it is about an hour long.
     
  2. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Just today.. the Arab News from Saudi Arabia has announced that schoolgirls are playing basketball inspite of what goofy ideas some old cleric expresses.

    Read the Arab Newspapers .. There is an increasing shift towards moderation and modernity.. I have been watching it for 60 years.

    Culture and tradition is often threatened by change.......
     
  3. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Indeed, but it is Ironic, considering that Islam accorded more rights to women than was generally granted at its conception: that Muslim majority countries are way back from the forefront of this issue.
     
  4. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    That's true, but cultures backslide sometimes into poverty and illiteracy.

    There is big difference between Islam and treatment of women in the wartorn rural outbacks of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.
     
  5. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Indeed, but then do you think the poor treatment of women is down to the situation or the culture? And where are the distinctions between culture and religion. Is Saudi Arabia dominated by Islamic culture... or a culture specific to them... or is that just arguing semantics?
     
  6. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    I think they have a culture specific to them.

    For one thing .. they were strictly tribal until Ibn Saud..

    Until there was some prosperity, healthcare, clean water and education.. they didn't have any concept of work day or even of getting paid.

    In the early years.. they would simple wander off the job.. or lay down in the shade and just go to sleep.

    Some came in worked a day.. looked in astonishment at a small bag of Riyals and never came back.

    When I was a girl... everyone had smallpox scars or eye disease.. blind people everywhere..polio victims everywhere.. and raging Malaria.

    Most babies died before age two.

    I am not sure where I am going here.. except to say that comprehension of one's faith isn't on the forefront if you are sick and hungry. It simply isn't contemplated and nuanced.
     
  7. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Let me clarify a bit.. If life is so hard and the environment so harsh and punishing.. a woman is a beast of burden... but so is her husband.
     
  8. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    As I have posted on this forum before, 70% of all new converts to Islam are all female.
     
  9. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Thanks for the info.

    Who are you aiming it at in such an aggrandised manner? I am under no illusions, and I certainly am not out to demonize any faith. There are, however problems within Islamic countries with regards to women's rights which are deap seated. Now I think there is no doubt an amalgamation of all sorts of issues, there is, the propensity of men in general to exert themselves over women. But there are practices inextricably linked to Islam which cannot be ignored: such as honour killing, facial and genital mutilation, forced marriages...

    'Women are not oppressed in Islam. Any Muslim man that oppresses a woman is not following Islam.' This almost discounts purportedly Islamic states as untrue to the faith. Somalia, Yemen, Jordan, Afghanistan and Iraq and however many more are all misrepresenting the faith. Then this is a massive hijacking is it not?
    I have said that islam in its conception made great positive leaps forward for women's rights (I am even touched by it in parts) at a time when women were being treated terribly.
     
    Citation: Women Rights in Islam
    Amidst this chaos in her status and exploitation of her personality, Islam came forward, declared and implemented over fourteen hundred years ago, a catalogue of rights in what is considered the most significant stride on her path to emancipation. First, it asserted that she is as much human as man is. They share the same organic origin (15:26) and human stock (4:1); both were created by God (55:1-3); went through the same embryonic development (23:12-14); each of them is responsible for his or her actions (74:38) for which they will be rewarded accordingly (17:97).
    Islam declared that she is not a property to be buried for any reason (18:31) or inherited (4:19) but has the right, as does man, to generate wealth (4:32), manage it wisely (25:67) and inherit it (4:7).
    In Islam she is no longer a devil but a human being that could attain the highest spiritual positions with endeavor and God’s guidance. God cited with all pleasure the exemplary cases of women who have attained such heights. He is most pleased with Asiya who stood against the insurmountable tyranny of Pharoah (66:11), and with Mary, the mother of Jesus. Mary worshipped God with all dedication and guarded her chastity so impeccably that she earned the fortune of the virgin birth (66:12).
    But this just emphasises the point that, at least in most islamic states it has dropped way back from the forefront of this movement.

    In Jordan women may be severely beaten, or even murdered, if they disobey their male family members or commit an act deemed "dishonorable," such as socializing with an unrelated man.

    Yemen - Yemen's Personal Status Law in particular, which covers matters of marriage, divorce, child custody and inheritance, gives women fewer rights than men, excludes women from decision making, and deprives them of access to, and control over, resources and assets. Women's access to maternal health care is severely restricted. In most cases, husbands decide women's fertility. It is hard for women to obtain contraception, or to take operation for treatment without a husband's permission. Women are vulnerable to sexual assault by prison guards, and there is a lower, if any, punishment for violence against women than men.

    Somalia - Violence and discrimination against women, including genital mutilation, is common. The rape of women by militia and bandits is a problem, and there are no laws against spousal rape.

    I could go on... this is not a fair representation of Islam, but more than enough to argue the point that liberation is not derived from it.

    So there is a discussion to be had on whether this has anything to do with Islam, or culture or both and also a fight which is going on in all of these countries to bring Islam back to when it saw women as equals to be cherished.
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of these things are linked to Islam JC. They are cultural. 'Honour' killings for instance from a program on Turkey tend to happen in districts where people have no conception of the law and are extremely poor. Hence family is the only 'honour' there is. In the west this happens too though it is not called such.

    Facial mutilation, not sure what you mean here. Some societies may think that is beauty or has some meaning. FGM is very much an old tribal tradition which goes on mainly in African communities where people have not had the opportunity to question tradition and do not understand they are hurting their daughter. On a forum I met a woman from Somalia who came to the UK. She was about to have this done when the local Muslim community called a meeting and explained to the women it was not Islam to do this and very dangerous, never mind against the law. She said she is the first known girl in her family who has not had it done.

    Even with forced marriage - again tribal and in many societies. It is important to be aware that forced marriage and arranged marriage are not the same thing.

    All these things then come from tradition rather than Islam and in no way are only done in Muslim societies.
     
  11. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    When I refer to facial mutilation I mean the cutting off of a woman's ears and nose as punishment, generally for going against a man's wishes. Ayesha Bibi is a case in point... but there are many cases. I hear what you saying, which almost goes without saying. However, people do, point to the Qu'ran in order to justify these acts. It's the same with any extremism... we say it's not Islamic to kill yourself, which it isn't, yet there are plenty of practitioners who think that it is. And always what I find myself asking is, why is the doctrine infallible? Why is it that we refuse to question the doctrine but only the interpretation/application. As I have said, either these things are un-Islamic, or like all religions, but I would say Islam in particular is undergoing a massive hijacking, and why 1400 years on has this taken place?

    It's the same with communism, the attempts have been massive failures, slave and nightmare states conceived time and time again. But people will never blame the doctrine, because in theory it works, so then why is it so manipulated beyond recognition?

    So now what is communism, or Islam, or any doctrine if not its interpretation? (just some room for nuance)
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I had never heard of this before. The Taliban.....well you might have said. The Taliban do not represent historical Afghan culture but were created during the Afghan/soviet/US war with the full knowledge of the US and against the wishes of democratic Afghans.

    http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2009/06/06/the-us-and-the-afghan-tragedy.html

    Interestingly is seems this barbaric practice was an old practice in India.

    http://www.indianmirror.com/strange/stindia3.html

    I suspect the Taliban were introducing the most barbaric customs from wherever they could find them.

    This is not Islam. It is important to differentiate. Otherwise you get into untrue hateful stereotypes which are not an honest description.


    If you don't want to stereotype I think it is important to look at specific issues. The issues you raised are not 'Islamic' and are carried out by Christians, Hindus and others as well. They need to be looked at in a culture specific environment....otherwise it just adds to creating a false bogeyman of Islam.

    What you are saying here is not quite true. Who is pointing to the Koran as justification? In which situation are the justifying it? Where have you been living if you have not seen every last islamophobe interpreting Islam as an evil religion which is not fit for Western Civilisation? Did you miss Wilder's video?


    Islam, like all religions has had in fighting, debate, different people branching out. The changes in Islam also need to be seen within political context. The current situation put very briefly could be said to stem from the introduction of Wahhabism

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/28/theislamicreformation

    However, that was restricted to Saudi Arabia during the first half of my life and severley frowned on by most Muslims, and still is by many. Then in the 60's at around the same time the neo-conservatives were coming to similar conclusions in the US, the Muslim brotherhood was born.

    Take time to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo1DqmfHjY

    Then you have the Afghan Russian/US war and Muslim Brotherhood members who had become more extremists and mad in Arab jails through being tortured were released to fight for the Americans. The US trained and financed them in preference to Afghan democratic fighters. (see the RAWA article and The power of nightmares above)

    At the end of the Afghan war these nutters went off to Muslim countries to try and convert them and generally were thrown out by ordinary Muslims, hence leading them to decide anyone but a radical/extremist was not a Muslim.

    At the same time due to the West's friendship with the Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia manage to get a sort of world monopoly on the spread of it's kind of Islam, sometimes called Salafism.

    Things were made worst by the US's decision to go on a crusade after 9/11

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.hirsh.html


    You can see how Salifism was imported into the UK and the consequences and how this was confronted by traditional Muslims here

    http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12846



    You sound like you are going off on a Pim Fortuyn or a Wilder's rant there. Oversimplification and stereotyping is a form of prejudice and is what the anti-islam extremist view is based on. I hope you can now see that the situation is far more complicated and strongly involves the political as well. You need to look at each situation and get an idea of the forces which are working within it. It seems you also missed the BBC series 'The Life of Muhammed' which was on last year and gave a very clear view from experts on what Muhammed was really like and the world in which he lived - a far cry from the anti-islam extremist propaganda.
     
  13. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    I know the Cold-War and the birth of the Taliban story. I have read quite a lot about it, and practices with Islamic countries. I really don’t think it’s fair to assume my ignorance by aligning me with anti-Islamic right wing politicians (I assume, I’ve never heard of them).
    The same as suicide bombing became popular amongst Buddhists and Hindus in Sri Lanka.
    Of course we should differentiate – however I think it somewhat dismissive and even defeatist to completely separate the two, religion and culture. I know the political reasons behind extremism. And I know all of these issues are not unique to Islam, don’t presume I do not. What I’m saying is that women’s rights activists across the Muslim world are fighting for Islam… they are fighting for the true Islam, which is being hijacked and dirtied by criminals, murderers and thugs in the name of all sorts of things. To say “well that’s just the culture.” I feel, dismisses this fact and almost loses weight to the best argument women have, which is that men are going against Mohammed’s teachings by oppressing their women.
    Again I disagree, just because they happen in other cultures/religions (blurred lines as far as I’m concerned) doesn’t mean they are not Islamic issues. Islam is going through this right now, I feel quite passionately about it, for some reason. I guess there is something more provocative, more seductive about Islam, I even dabbled with it for a while when I was 18, but in the end I knew I couldn’t accept the discrepancies, I still don’t eat pork, not for any rational reason other than a tribute to that part of my life.
    It is absolutely true, how can you ask me that? You think that a pious Islamist such as (pick at random) General Zia doesn’t think he is struggling in the ways of Allah? That he doesn’t vindicate himself in what he sees as Islamic ways? There is no doctrine is which someone could attempt to justify stoning an adulterer for example, other than a religious one.

    Indeed, but forget the bigots for a sec, because bigots will always be bigots. They will always see everything on face value and judge accordingly. What do you do if you separate Islam from its struggle? I feel as though it’s like not treating a wound because you’ve decided it is not part of your body. Of course look at it within its political context but don’t dismiss it as nothing to do with Islam. As I’ve said Islam IS its interpretation, it is the realisation of human consciousness, based on the teachings of Mohammed multiplied by 1 billion. And there is a whole spectrum from good to bad. What you do here is amputate the bad. Which I know is necessary to some degree, especially for those out to criticise, but the fact is, it needs criticism and it needs criticism from an Islamic perspective

    Where do you live?

    I will look at your links in good time, I should be working. But lastly I feel as though you have jumped to conclusions by aligning me with these guys. You shouldn’t assume because I have criticism for purportedly communist states, North Korea, Cuba, China the Soviet Union, or that I have criticism for extreme fascism and outdated jurisdiction and cultural barbarism within Islamic countries that I’m some sort of ignorant right wing redneck. I have a lot of issues with things outside of this as well, trust me.
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Chill! I am only responding to what you write! ;)

    and yet you were referring to it as an act of Islam and within the context of Afghanistan and showed no indication that you were knowledgeable on the circumstances by not referring to this. I simply answered what you had said.

    good point.


    You made the false claim
    That is simply not true. These practises are linked to culture not to Islam. Some of them are linked to South Asian culture and some of them to African and they belong to other religious people in those areas as well. To claim they are islamic is not true and gives false information due to it's inaccuracies. You may not have intended this and I did try to leave some room if this was not your intention, nonetheless it is what you did.

    Ok

    Then do not say that they are as above. It is really important to be accurate if you do not want to be misunderstood or give a false impression.

    again this is a very broad brush and not necessarily true. It certainly is true of women in Afghanistan where they have the worst possible experience - they do not blame Islam but the mad extremists but I do not think there is a worldwide view. Saudi women for instance tend to surprisingly like the way their society goes. I think you need to take care not to make things black and white. Many British Muslims like wearing the veil for instance. On the other hand I would agree that not only women but Muslims worldwide are afraid of Salafi government, lesser so Muslim Brotherhood. I read an article yesterday where it was suggesting that some people were not joining the anti Assad campaign not because they did not want to and not because they did not want to get rid of Assad but because they were terrified that they would get an anti democratic salafi style government. I accept therefore that their is probably as much if not more concern about extreme Muslims in the Muslim world as anywhere else and always has been.

    You are saying that all Muslims oppress their women. I quite simply do not believe that is true. You used to prove this something which is culturally specific. You need as I have said before to deal with specific issues if you don't want things to degrade into stereotypes.

    You see no difference between Hinduism, Christianity and Islam? Why choose Islam to concentrate on then?

    The issues you provided are cultural not Islamic.

    You quite simply cannot just say that. There are a mass of things happening within Islam just now. There are a mass of different voices but you wish to tar everyone with the same brush.

    Some personal experience perhaps?


    Have a look at my link to Islam City and see if it rings any bells. UK Islam has had a bit of a beating. It is hard enough for those who were born into Islam never mind newcomers and newcomers are known to be the ones most targeted by extremists.

    http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12846

    I simply asked you to state who you were talking about because it most certainly is a) not true that all Muslims justify extremism and b) not true that Islam has not been given the most gruesome interpretation by anti-islamists. It is not true that the 'doctrine' of Islam as you put it has not been questioned and not just by anti-islamists by all Muslims.

    What struggle? Are you talking about political struggle or the struggle between competing versions of Islam? It is much more complicated than you are presenting. It is quite possible for instance to be a Sufi or a traditional Muslim. I went to a Sufi retreat centre over 30 years ago and it was a beautiful place.

    I suspect where you should be arguing a lot of this is with (other) Muslims. Again, look at the Islam city link and see if it rings any bells.


    Well if you had bothered to read my links before you answered this you would have seen that I did not - but within context.

    then as I put in my previous post you will be aware there are several interpretations.


    There is possibly a confusion here. 'realisation of human consciousness' is something which happens from spiritual practice or extremely good psychological health and letting go of ego. It can certainly be done using the background if Islam for practice but it inevitably must come from your own integration and contact with your own inner self. This aspect, whether it comes from the spiritual in any religion or through any other way is Spiritual. Spirituality transcends all religions. On that level we are all at one. No more ego.

    'teachings of Mohammed multiplied by 1 billion' not exactly sure what you are talking about here. At best, this can help you to develop at worst dogma used to control.

    Then is not an Islamic forum like Islam city not the best place to debate? I simply cannot believe that you are not aware that there are massive of divergent views within the Muslim communities within the UK.




    I live in the UK. Does it make a difference where I live?


    I wasn't assuming. I answered what you wrote.
     
  15. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    I think the poor treatment of women has more to do with the culture of the religion, than the actual religious doctrine itself.

    I also think middle-easterners in general may be more genetically predisposed to violence and intolerance.
     
  16. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Never! :)

    Well firstly thanks for taking the time to read and comment. I still haven’t looked at the links, as I said I tend to only talk to strangers on the internet at work. With regards to this, yes it’s broad, it’s a post, not a political study. I’m not sure I need to explain the whole history of Afghanistan before I mention facial mutilation. I wouldn’t say it’s an Islamic act, but I also won’t say it doesn’t happen within Islam. There is something in that – and I find this a lot across a range of issues. You cannot criticise something without being assumed ignorant or being too broad or simplistic. I’m not withstanding all the things you must take into account, but why is it you must list them before you can address the issues?

    I’m not so sure what you mean. For me culture and religion become blurred, like we have agreed there are different manifestations of Islam, no pure version, and this is my point.

    I think you’re switching my words to fit your argument. There’s a difference between something that is linked to Islam and something that is Islamic. I stand by my statement – it is linked to Islam, same as child abuse is linked to Catholicism. Whether it is technically un-Islamic is a different matter.

    What do you mean by worldwide view? Again yes it is broad, but I don’t see why I have to list every different circumstance before I say something. Look, pick any Islamic country and search women’s rights. You will see movements with very important and sometimes dangerous fights on their hands. Like I’ve said, to say these issues are not Islamic doesn’t wash with me, and I think it takes away from the very prominent and irrefutable leverage that women have in the Qu’ran.

    This is your assumptions at work. Take care in what sense? Again do you suggest that every time these things are brought up we must precede with a wealth of information from the other end of the spectrum, which in fact I did attempt to do somewhat. I have quoted parts of the Qu’ran in my previous post which accords women their rights thus vindicating Islam, but… there is more to it which I will get to.

    Patronising…

    But of course they are nothing to do with Islam? (see where I’m going with this)

    Agreed 'There are few certainties or even probabilities in the complex and bloody crisis in which Syria is now mired.'

    I think that pretty much sums it up. Yes, we all want the violence to stop, that's us being human. There are so many conflicting forces at play however it seems action is stultified by national interests and various potentialities - all of them violent. The Russian's don't want to lose an important Arab ally and client state. There's question over what kind of regime may replace Assad, and whether the collapse of the regime would lead to more sectarian chaos in the country. Some of the minority Shiites in the country actually still support Assad.

    'Like his fellow Shiites in Iraq, Abu Ali, who used his nickname to protect his family back in Syria, said he regards the Syrian rebels as terrorists, not freedom fighters, underscoring one of the complexities of a bloody civil conflict that has persisted as diplomatic efforts have failed. In spite of President Bashar al-Assad’s willingness to unleash a professional military on a civilian population, with lethal results, Mr. Assad retains some support at home and abroad from allies, including religious and ethnic minorities who for decades relied on the police state for protection from sectarian aggression.'

    The state military is strong (the country implements an obligatory service) and it will be no small feat to topple this regime. So... it's tricky - egg shell stuff. I don't have a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing clue how to go about it, I'm not a diplomat. But rest assure we are shared in our concern.

    Bolox am I, do not put words in my mouth.

    Agreed (obviously).

    I can deal with plenty of specific issues, and I will, if you want, but for the purpose of discussion I tried to give an overview. But you constantly find yourself having to explain over and over, do these things happen only in Islamic countries? No. Do you know the history and politics behind it? Yes, at least to some degree, there is lots to learn. Does any of this refute the idea that these are issues within the Islamic faith? No, I don’t think so.

    Why the hell not. I’m quite happy to look at issues within Christianity and Hinduism, and I do. There is a post titled “kill nuns”. And I’m in various threads tussling with theists from various creeds. There is lots to address Alexa but one thread at a time aye.

    Well maybe we argue over semantics here.


    You’re drawing to conclusions based on little to nothing. I didn’t say “this is the only thing Islam is going through” or anything of the sort. Of course there are a mass of voices, I do not wish to tar everyone with the same brush at all that’s your assumption. Look, it’s simple, Islam is going through a challenging time, right now. You have said so yourself, as have I, stop jumping to conclusions.

    Will do, thanks.

    Agreed, when did I say anything to the contrary? When did I say “all Muslims justify extremism?” or that extremists don’t give Islam a bad name? More jumping, I’m seeing a pattern.

    A manifold one.

    I do.
     
  17. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Of course and I think therein lies my point. There is the general defensive wall you get when addressing issues. And I’m quite happy to look at or the divergences, all the political and social and tribal issues. But, there is a problem, in that the book does falter, and because of that I hold it partly responsible. For example "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great

    So the fact is in the trio of monotheistic holy books - God (*)(*)(*)(*)ed up and "revealed" some pretty stupid verses that (being all knowing) he should have known would cause problems.

    Maybe I should have said the conception of human consciousness. Or the reflection, the amalgamation. I’m saying Islam isn’t defined just by its book, it’s defined by its interpretation and application within society. Whether that has anything to do with spirituality is another question but you’d certainly hope so.

    Maybe, haven’t looked at it yet.

    Well good at least you don’t think me a complete idiot yet.

    Innocent curious question.

    There’s been a lot of assuming here imo. But anyway thanks again I do enjoy these discussions.

    Finally a few questions…

    Did Islam set out to accord more rights and equality than was practice during its conception? Yes it would certainly seem so.


    Is there a battle within Islam between moderate democrats and archaic fundamentalists? Of course, and a fierce one at that.


    In this battle, are women's and human rights being compromised by 'hijackers' of the faith? On a grand and horrific scale.


    Has the battle over interpretation raged since religion was conceived, and would you say this stems from the idea that any one book can have the supernatural claim to be the absolute, inerrant and infallible truth? Yes

    Therefore would you say that it is because the doctrines are not infallible, or supernatural and were put together by crude, and by some standards, dumb-thinking mammals 1400 years ago that the war goes on? Uhh... yeah why not.


    Are we stuck with religion? Yes


    Oh dear... so then what? Moves away from literalism, theocracies and fundamentalism and towards modernity, secularism and moderation are steps in the right direction. And yes that might involve some valid, careful and intelligent 'finger pointing' (not necessarily from me I’m just a lowly forum dweller).
     
  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is very hard trying to communicate to someone who still has not had the grace to look at the links I provided in my second reply to him and so is ignoring what I say. It is a waste of my time really.

    Exactly who here, including yourself do you think is an expert of whatever book this is that does not falter whatever that means?

    What exactly is this blather about? I will assume that it is a something to do with Islam. I am not even going to be bothered discussing this with you. I am not a Muslim nor an Islamic scholar. I have been on forums where BNP members have tirelessly produced Koran sayings to degrade all Muslims and try to produce Islamophobia.

    I refer you to this article on Loonwatch http://www.loonwatch.com/?s=Islam+Women&x=8&y=7

    and this one http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/02/ho...y-shouldnt-trust-robert-spencers-scholarship/

    Now if you expect me to believe that you coming on here first of all blaming Islam for forced marriage, FGM, and the practice of the Taliban and then to start bringing up odd pieces of god knows what to try and show how bad they are, and you expect me not to believe your intent is to create anti-islam feeling then you are daft. I gave you some slack but not any more.

    You are here to paint a particular picture of Islam. You are not here to gain an understanding of what is going on - after all you know it all already do you not...


    It is a universal spiritual truth. Let go of your ego and you and I are one. At the same time we are also more individual than most people could ever imagine. It is a spiritual truth. However the masses in most faiths just go around trying to be good..


    why answer posts when you haven't even looked at links?


    I doubt you will now. If you genuinely have a real interest in understanding things you need to start reading a lot more. Whether your intention was to encourage islamophobes, you have come on speaking just like one. Now that is either due to inexperience, not taking the time to make yourself clear or because you did have the intention to do so. I gather you have had some experience which was not good. I don't think this is the place to discuss that not least because you are just coming out with your prejudices rather than saying what your personal experience was and it just helps no one. I can't put it any nicer than that. There are many reasons people are Muslim and you simply cannot try and create stereotypes and then get hurt when people point that out. For instance are you aware that Traditional Islam is not literalistic? I particularly gave you the link to the introduction of Salafism in the UK because I think it gives a lot of information on Islam in the UK which appears at the moment to be very fluid and could go in many directions. Abdal Hakim Murad for example, a British convert and Professor of Islamic studies at Cambridge University hopes that eventually there will be a British Islam - and for him to be a part it would not be literalistic and so would not be stuck with sayings of over a thousand years ago but brought up to date. You also maybe do not know that a lot of British Muslims came from small villages where they had a sort of sufi tradition but here all they received was an Iman speaking another language getting them to recite the Koran in that language. A lot of these people originally moved away from Islam and tried like hell to integrate but we did not deal as well with anti Paki and Bengali prejudice as we did with black and they were looking for somewhere to belong and to find meaning when Salifism came to the UK. People need time to work through this and they cannot manage that if people are always dissing them on forums when they don't even know what they're talking about.
     
  19. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    No it's OK Alexa, I genuinely do enjoy this stuff. I'm not one to get mad, you have taken me all wrong, jumped to conclusions, even been quite pompous and presumptuous. I happen to like Islam - I have been to Egypt and few times and Tunisia and very excited to visit Morocco next month, I don't/can't travel a lot but when I do I like to go to Islamic countries - though I think given the choice we would do better without organised religion. But that's fine, I shall take a look at your links and get back to you.
     
  20. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    The same thing happens in Christians cultures and more so in Hindu cultures.

    We have already this discussed this before but I'll post it again to prove that girls and women are FAR more oppressed in other societies without the slightest objection from the West:


    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2728976&page=1#.T6K2n1KGIc4


    If female oppression is of great concern to you, begin with criticizing this. Unlike Hinduism or any other religion on earth, Islam has the highest rate of female converts. That tells you all you need to know about its leanings towards women.
     
  21. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    You and Alexa should jump off your high horse for just a second and consider this rationally. The quote is there for you to see and put in the contexts by which I have explained I stand by it. What you have done - both of you - is read that statement and interpreted it as “These acts are intrinsic to Islam.” or “These acts are all that defines Islam.” or “Islam is inherently violent and oppressive.” And then you have addressed me accordingly from what I can tell. Alexa especially has launched straight into lecture mode and proceeding to provide a list of links highlighting prejudices against Muslims and had sought to align me - again from what I can tell - with the likes of the perpetrators. Which is, profoundly much more than annoying. But it’s a forum and I’m more than happy to explain myself, that’s the good thing about the written word, you can take the time to state your case. And people can’t change the words to fit. So the acts are “linked” to Islam, yes they are, it doesn’t mean they are unique to Islam, it doesn’t mean they started with Islam, it means that purportedly strict practitioners and followers of Islam practice these things all the time. It’s not me being a right wing Islamophobe, or even being ambiguous, I have tried to be very succinct, but it seems you have to write essays just to justify linking these acts to the faith, question is why? Why is it such a terrible act to link them? They are problems within Islam, are you going to refute that? So the fact that similar things happen outside of Islam doesn’t change things.

    Mr Truth, why should I start with this? Of course, I can start a thread (or maybe you can) to discuss the atrocities occurring within other religions. No problem. I don’t see why this means I am not allowed to talk about the issues within Islam.
     
  22. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    Well I looked at the previous two, and frankly it’s insulting. Perhaps you can explain the motives behind the links? And nobody is forcing you to “waste your time” feel free not to reply, you won’t hurt my feelings.


    Well here we get to the bones of my position. Firstly, no, I’m not an expert, but as I said I did dabble and in my humble opinion the book does falter (you have read the sentence wrong, it reads that the book does falter). By that I mean it is not innocent, the verse I posted is very famous and can be spun any which way you want, it condones beating disobedient wives, essentially. And of course you just say it was written over a thousand years ago, just ignore it. Which would be fine if the book didn’t claim to be inerrant dogma, there is an irrefutable problem with that, but please feel free to tell me why there is not. You are much older, and claim to be much more well-read, which judging by your years you probably are. So why not… from now on I am your student.

    I can’t see how you can justify talking to me like that. Very annoying to put it lightly.


    Well, I’m afraid I must be daft. As I have said, take a look at the second post, before you even got involved. Women’s rights in Islam is there. I’m not blaming Islam for these acts, I’m saying the acts are linked, that they are problems. Like the Sunni and Shia split is linked to Islam… right? That’s not to say Islam invented sectarianism. Think… I’m being very patient here.

    I don’t think you have given the discussion the slightest room to breath. All you wanted to do was jump on your high horse as soon as someone mentioned problems within the faith. But please - because you are wrong - continue to school me as you will. But stop the nonsense assumptions with regards to my motives.

    That’s very nice, I feel as though we are bonding. But you still misunderstand my wording. Let’s drop consciousness, I am talking about the infinite manifestations under the banner of the monolith Islam. It is not defined by any one thing, it is 1.6 billion interpretations of the same book, now you give credence to some interpretations over others, which is only right. My point is that this practice doesn’t negate the fact that others see it differently. We can sit here and say these people are not representing Islam, and that’s true to some extent, but they see it much differently.


    As I’ve said I always enjoy these exchanges and I thank you for that. Say what you like, you’re wrong. I am reminded of Ayaan Hirsi Ali who says this about going through similar accusations: "I'm not being rightwing," she says. "The people who believe themselves to be on the left, and who defend the agents of Islam in the name of tolerance and culture, are being rightwing. Not just rightwing. Extreme rightwing. I don't understand how you can be so upset about the Christian right and just ignore the Islamic right. I'm talking about equality." (She is seeing the rightwing historian Niall Ferguson, who, she wrote recently in a Dutch magazine, she is "enormously in love with", but won't comment on it today, nor smile at the suggestion that in most people's minds this will instantly reposition her on the political scale.)

    Her life is in danger for speaking out about the wrongs within Islam, and with much more venom than I even began to. Do you think she deserves it?
     

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