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Thread: Discussion regarding abortion in cases of birth defects

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    You say the woman has rights but you want to eliminate the rights of people simply because they are not perfect like you seem to think you are. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DETERMINE SOMEONE ELSES QUALITY OF LIFE. JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

    Mercy for you is killing children.
    I know I am, and if I ever forget, I can check my driver's license.

    Regarding the issue at hand though, determining the quality of life of a fetus is no one's right except the mother's. I do not advocate making this decision for anyone, and explicitly said so in my OP, which I'm pretty sure you haven't read. I have not advocated eliminating the right's of anyone.

    And yes, in cases of severe birth defects, I consider having an abortion to be a merciful thing to do. I know it seems unfathomable to you that someone that has to live their life in those cases may not be happy and cheery or take comfort from being the inspiration to normal people everywhere you think they are, but it's very likely true. I can't say for sure that it is in all cases, and that is precisely why I made this thread. I do not make the claim that I have the power to judge someone's quality of life and determine where the line is between what is good and what is bad, and if we're talking about a situation where the person is already born, it's completely irrelevant at that point anyhow. You can't have an abortion once you've given birth. If we're talking about a mother who has been informed that her child will suffer from birth defects if allowed to be born, are you going to tell that mother that she shouldn't consider the quality of life her fetus will have? That she has to choose life regardless of the condition her child will be forced by genetics to live with for the rest of it's life, no matter what their impact on living day-to-day is? I don't advocate that.

    In these cases, I think the doctor needs to stress the complications and factors that will affect the child once it's born. It's ultimately the mother who has to make up her mind, but just like you pro-lifers think women should be shown ultrasounds and have invasive unnecessary procedures, women carrying a damaged fetus ought to be made explicitly aware of the consequences of that as well.
    A kind act is never too small to matter. - Me(as far as I know)

    No one's excited
    Unless they are divided
    Someone's going to have to give in
    It seems uncertain - 311

  2. #52
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    According to this study, 92% of the women who get a diagnosis of Downs Syndrome choose to abort.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-B/abstract

    92%. Clearly, it's not just the evil pro-aborts doing it -- most of those moralizing pro-lifers are aborting as well. When push comes to shove, almost everyone is aborting a Down's Syndrome fetus. Society has overwhelmingly said it's acceptible.

    This seems right, since the numbers of retarded people I see around are less than they were when I was young. Not everyone gets prenatal screening, so in effect about half of Downs pregnancies end up aborted.
    Last edited by mamooth; May 07 2012 at 01:58 PM.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by yguy View Post
    But of course that's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is euthanizing an unborn child.
    Oh, word play again. *sigh* Okay, just because I don't feel like turning this thread into every other abortion thread, I'll just say that it's both.

    And I find it odd that you pretend to be any more willing to do so than anyone else.
    I'm not sure what you mean here. I do think about it, quite a bit actually since I see those children just about every morning. I started this thread.

    Better you should ask whether this fraudulent sense of compassion of yours is a cover for an unconscious contempt for innocent human life.
    Yep, I hate human life. You nailed it.

    Is that all you've got? Seriously?
    A kind act is never too small to matter. - Me(as far as I know)

    No one's excited
    Unless they are divided
    Someone's going to have to give in
    It seems uncertain - 311

  4. #54

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    Junkieturtle said,


    "Regarding the issue at hand though, determining the quality of life of a fetus is no one's right except the mother's. I do not advocate making this decision for anyone, and explicitly said so in my OP, which I'm pretty sure you haven't read. I have not advocated eliminating the right's of anyone."
    You want no legal protection for the life in the womb. I do not believe any pregnant women has the right to decide the quality of the life she is carrying. What you say here is not true. You are pro-abortion which means you deny the rights of the life….and put the mothers before theirs.



    "And yes, in cases of severe birth defects, I consider having an abortion to be a merciful thing to do. I know it seems unfathomable to you that someone that has to live their life in those cases may not be happy and cheery or take comfort from being the inspiration to normal people everywhere you think they are, but it's very likely true. I can't say for sure that it is in all cases, and that is precisely why I made this thread. I do not make the claim that I have the power to judge someone's quality of life and determine where the line is between what is good and what is bad, and if we're talking about a situation where the person is already born, it's completely irrelevant at that point anyhow. You can't have an abortion once you've given birth. If we're talking about a mother who has been informed that her child will suffer from birth defects if allowed to be born, are you going to tell that mother that she shouldn't consider the quality of life her fetus will have? That she has to choose life regardless of the condition her child will be forced by genetics to live with for the rest of it's life, no matter what their impact on living day-to-day is? I don't advocate that."
    Mericiful you say?…..I can only imagine what that might also mean to you aside from abortion. I don't want to know. I think it would be merciful if all abortion doctors would be eliminated….look at the lives saved. Their quality of life is horrible…killing humans everyday…lets put them out of their misery, right? Was it merciful that Tiller was murdered….some say yes. What do you say? ARe they wrong?
    What is merciful to you might not be for another person…are you tolerant enough to accept what I think is merciful? Or don't I have that right? You seem to think you do.

    You do draw the line….rather you paint a black bullseye on every unborn in the womb. You just in this thread came up with yet another reason to justify why you think the unborn should die.

    In these cases, I think the doctor needs to stress the complications and factors that will affect the child once it's born. It's ultimately the mother who has to make up her mind, but just like you pro-lifers think women should be shown ultrasounds and have invasive unnecessary procedures, women carrying a damaged fetus ought to be made explicitly aware of the consequences of that as well.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by churchmouse; May 07 2012 at 02:42 PM.

  5. #55

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    mammoth said,

    "According to this study, 92% of the women who get a diagnosis of Downs Syndrome choose to abort."
    That is tragic. I wonder if they give stats on how many really didn't have Downs and were aborted. I know several people who were told their child had Downs and were born fine.

    People today want perfect. Hell there was a women in England that aborted a child because she found out it had lip abnormalities. But to a pro-abort….this shouldn't matter…..kill no matter what.



    "92%. Clearly, it's not just the evil pro-aborts doing it -- most of those moralizing pro-lifers are aborting as well. When push comes to shove, almost everyone is aborting a Down's Syndrome fetus. Society has overwhelmingly said it's acceptable."
    Who ever said that? LMAO I have said over and over that the majority of women getting abortions claim to be Christian….so don't even go there. Morals…what would you know about morals? So if society says rape is acceptable….or child porn….would you agree? Oh yes….i would imagine you would. LOL


    "This seems right, since the numbers of retarded people I see around are less than they were when I was young. Not everyone gets prenatal screening, so in effect about half of Downs pregnancies end up aborted."
    Retarded? The way you put things is vile. I feel so so sorry for you….living in a world that is just impossible to live in. Wanting everything perfect…how superficial is that? I would much rather spend time….with a "retarded" person as you call them…then spend it with people who share your position on life.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    Junkieturtle said,

    You want no legal protection for the life in the womb. I do not believe any pregnant women has the right to decide the quality of the life she is carrying. What you say here is not true. You are pro-abortion which means you deny the rights of the life….and put the mothers before theirs.
    There are other threads available for you to repeat yourself in. I specifically said that this thread was not about abortion in general and whether or not it should be legal. If that's what you want to argue, there are plenty of other threads for that. In fact, I put that disclaimer in specifically because I knew I would end up having to say this exact thing to you.

    Mericiful you say?…..I can only imagine what that might also mean to you aside from abortion. I don't want to know. I think it would be merciful if all abortion doctors would be eliminated….look at the lives saved. Their quality of life is horrible…killing humans everyday…lets put them out of their misery, right? Was it merciful that Tiller was murdered….some say yes. What do you say? ARe they wrong?
    What is merciful to you might not be for another person…are you tolerant enough to accept what I think is merciful? Or don't I have that right? You seem to think you do.
    There is nothing that you've said here that has anything to do with a woman considering abortion after discovering the presence of one or more birth defects. I have shown no fear of discussing the legality and morality of abortion with you in threads dealing with those issues, but this is not one of those threads. Since you're repeating yourself anyway, can we do it in another thread?

    You do draw the line….rather you paint a black bullseye on every unborn in the womb. You just in this thread came up with yet another reason to justify why you think the unborn should die.
    It would be amusing to me that you think I "paint a black bullseye on every unborn in the womb" if I didn't think you were convinced I actually do believe that. So instead, it's just sad that you do.
    A kind act is never too small to matter. - Me(as far as I know)

    No one's excited
    Unless they are divided
    Someone's going to have to give in
    It seems uncertain - 311

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkieturtle View Post
    Oh, word play again.
    The word play was instigated by the pro-death crowd before you were born. I'm just exposing it for what it is. You're welcome.

    I'm not sure what you mean here. I do think about it, quite a bit actually since I see those children just about every morning.
    Too bad you never see the unborn children who are murdered by people who think like you.

    Yep, I hate human life. You nailed it.
    You said it, I didn't.

    Is that all you've got? Seriously?
    Even if it is, it's obviously way more than you can handle.
    "When I am weaker than you, I ask you for my freedom because that is according to your principles. When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles."

    ~ Frank Herbert

  8. #58

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    You say I am not on topic….ok I will go over everything you said in the first post you made.


    "The purpose of this thread is to discuss abortion in cases where prenatal testing has shown one or more birth defects."
    Abortion is wrong in every circumstance even for birth defects. You are killing a living human being you should not have the right to kill. No different than killing a child who is just not wanted by his mother. This should make no difference for you because the mother has the right to kill. Why are you even addressing this? You are pro-choice.

    "This thread is not about whether abortion in general should be legal or illegal, or abortion in any other circumstances than the confirmed presence of birth defects."
    If the child has birth defects…….abortion should still not be allowed. A life is a life……no matter what condition the unborn is in.

    "There are other threads for general abortion discussion. Cases where the handicap is caused by something post-birth would not apply to this thread, nor am I directly or indirectly suggesting the idea that post-birth defects be handled in a similar manner. I am also not proposing mandatory abortion in these cases, so please, lets keep the discussion free from baseless generalizations and assumptions."
    So what do you want to discuss? I am against abortion….so you tell me? What are pro-lifers supposed to say? You say its the woman's right….I don't. What does birth defects have to do with this?

    "My personal stance is that abortion should be strongly recommended in cases of confirmed birth defects, especially seriously debilitating physical or mental ones."
    Well that is a no brainer….for crying out loud. You are also for abortion in every other circumstance….so why single defects out? I mean come on…..Now your saying…hey mom and dad….your kid has a birth defect you should kill it….even if they want it. You just hate kids don't ya?



    "I drop my kids off at school every morning. Their elementary school has a special education department for mentally handicapped and other wise special education needs children. I see these kids and I can't help but wonder what their quality of life is."
    And I just bet you look at them with disgust and it makes your stomach turn doesn't it? Do they repulse you…the ones that might drool, or make funny noises? I hope to heck that nothing happens to a member of your family or someone close….that might suffer something like this, through an accident or some health issue. Would you leave them? Keep them at home so no one would know they exist? What would you do? Would you move to Oregon where you might have a better chance of letting them die through assisted suicide? I am sure you would not waste your time doing anything with them….according to you they just don't deserve or could not possibly have any quality of life. You never see beauty in just simple things do you?


    "Some of the ones with more mild complications probably don't have that hard of time, but I see some of the kids with serious physical defects(admittedly, the mentally handicapped ones are harder for me to identify since I'm not in the classroom with them) and I just feel it's selfish to have allowed them to be born. I've read the inspirational stories of families with disabled children, and they are heartwarming, but nobody ever talks about the kids and what they might be thinking, likely because they don't actually know."
    For people like you these kinds of human beings are a bother….you simply could never take care or enjoy or nurture one that is for sure. You see no reason for them to live…and I find even more than your position on abortion…your attitude on this the saddest. My brother in law is mentally handicapped. He has taught our family more lessons about love than anyone I have ever known. You could simply never comprehend this kind of love and joy…that is sad. I feel so so sorry for you.


    "In those cases, I truly feel your doctor ought to strongly recommend terminating the pregnancy, not out of convenience for the parents but mercy for the child."
    Termination…..there is that word again…..KILL that word you don't have the guts to say. Or do you….lets hear it. Write the same sentence and use kill, I dare ya?

    For you honey,,,,it would save you embarrassment….because any child less than perfect you would you could not accept. No its not for the child you would want it killed…it would be for you….so you would not be bothered.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    Giving birth in PAIN was a punishment from God for our sin
    So what (*)(*)(*)(*)ing sin did the women of today commit? Or is your God just a vicious harpy who would punish generations of women for the actions of ONE woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    You are absolutely wrong…here. Abortion kills you are in denial. If no interference happened to the unborn…..it would grow and be born. Abortion is the willing act by a woman and the hired abortionist……..to kill, to stop, to eliminate the life growing. ABORTION KILLS A LIVING HUMAN.

    I can't believe the stupidity of some statements. TERMINATE…..MEANS KILL.
    You didn't read her post. Read it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    Let me then add two more words. TERMINATE A LIFE. This means killing it, ending it, not for a minute, an hour….for good. Abortion terminates a life forever. There ya go…….
    So what? Its a life dependent on another person. It has less value than the host.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    This comment speaks for itself.

    You are selfish for remaining alive and wanting to be with your family and they with you. That is considered selfish...lmao!

    Nothing else to say here....
    Its is selfish to EXPECT your wife to bend over backwards and care for you 24/7 while she also cares for your children. If she chooses to do it willingly, fine, but when you EXPECT her to do that, and DEMAND it of her, then that IS selfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DETERMINE SOMEONE ELSES QUALITY OF LIFE.
    But YOU did, yet you sit here and judge others for their choices.
    Farewell my beautiful Gracie Baby, beloved pet:
    15th Jan 1997- 18 Jul 2009

    "The Futures Not Set; There Is No Fate But What We Make For Ourselves" - John Connor: Terminator 2.
    http://mywinterstorm83.livejournal.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by churchmouse View Post
    Sorry I forgot you are a Pagan.
    Believe what you want; fortunately, the First Amendment prohibits you from forcing your dogma on everyone. That is the concept of separation of church and state.
    ""Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false." --Bertrand Russell

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