Scotland

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Reiver, Nov 9, 2012.

?

Independence for Scotchland

  1. Yah

    64.9%
  2. Nah

    35.1%
  1. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    The English and most of the Scots (i.e. those that don't live in Scotland) won't get a vote. How would you vote in the Scot independence malarkey?
     
  2. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Whilst I appreciate the yankee redneck inference, I refuse to vote in any poll relating to a country called "Scotchland".
     
  3. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    LMAO!

    I didn't even notice!

    :clap: Scotland :thumbsup:
     
  4. Beevee

    Beevee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can understand that. Inebriated as you might be, their are chances are that you would place your mark in the wrong box.
     
  5. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    It's all that Scotch. The land is awash.

    Colonel K, would you please get your arse in and explain your vote to curious minds...
     
  6. Paris

    Paris Well-Known Member

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    It's up to the Scots (i.e. those that live in Scotland). I have no idea what is best for Scotland and won't pretend I do. So I didn't vote in your poll malarkey.
     
  7. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Aye ..... no flies on our Viv!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  8. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnae trust wee Eck as far as I could throw him, and that Rosanna has more than a touch of the Ferenghi about her as well!
     
  9. Paris

    Paris Well-Known Member

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    A voté!
     
  10. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Guessing my vote will surprise nobody!
     
  11. Skeptical Heretic

    Skeptical Heretic New Member

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    A country called Scotchland would be my ideal place to live, I swear I've imagined it on several occasions.
     
  12. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    You'll enjoy this.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    You'd vote against independence for your country because of temporary politicians?
     
  14. edao

    edao New Member

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    10 Reasons why independence is not worth considering.

    1. Alex Salmond
    2. The SNP manifesto is about a 5th of the size of the Labour or Conservative equivalent with most of it saying if we had powers from Westminster we might give it some thought.
    3. Everything the 'Scottish Executive' has done has been a disaster. Scottish Parliament, trams in Edinburgh, removal of fees from the Forthtolbridge, delaying cuts, subsidising further education when the rest of the uk makes cuts, free prescriptions.
    4. Wasting tax payer money to rebrand from 'the scottish executive' to 'the scottish government'.
    5. Alex Salmond.
    6. An independent Scotland would inevitably be absorbed into a European mega state and would have even less of a say in it's future. (no such thing as independence and economic growth)
    7. Scotland don't have a currency with their own central bank, its either the Bank of England or its the ECB (oops!) A divergent economy with no control over monetary policy (sound familiar to anyone?)
    8. Nicola sturgeon looks like the 5th Beatles.
    9. William Wallace got what was coming to him, if only that could be arrange for Alex Shortbread Salmond.
    10. Localism in all its forms is for Communists.

    Lets face it tribalism is DEAD. Find the winning team and get on it!

    "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
    Charles Darwin
     
  15. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    I'd vote for the union because I don't like snake-oil. We run Britain already, why would we step back?
     
  16. Deputy Dawg

    Deputy Dawg Banned

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    I am all for Scotland being independent. I hope they vote for it.
     
  17. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    I.e. probably the main reason most are considering it. You're somewhat out of step with majority opinion there.

    Scotland is about a 6th of the size of UK.

    The Labour/Conservative manifestos were no doubt prepared at or by Westminster politicians regardless of the official line on that. It might be better for people who live here to draft a manifesto with no interest in following Westminster but actually interested in this country's needs and without UK (or should we say London) as the primary beneficiary.

    On the drafting of that, there is work to be done. Salmond's team is by far more competent than Westminster and Rome wasn't built in a day. Rather time is taken to do the work and get it as right as possible, than be rushed into anything ill advised by the London media.

    3. Everything the 'Scottish Executive' has done has been a disaster. Scottish Parliament, trams in Edinburgh, removal of fees from the Forthtolbridge, delaying cuts, subsidising further education when the rest of the uk makes cuts, free prescriptions.[/quote]

    Half of the issues you mention have been deliberately manipulated to increase political support for independence north and south of the border. Which has worked.

    As opposed to wasting tax payers' money continually rebranding and rebranding multiple civil service departments.

    Effective and extensively experienced politician.

    Europe is a plus and you have no idea where Scotland will be placed in that, other than to say we have capable politicians with European experience and it will be interesting to see them work for Scotland, rather than UK.

    Without the EU/European set up, we would be dealing with England's nonsense alone and therefore in a much less strong and possibly dangerous position. Membership within Europe as an independent state is preferable to UK membership and affords a measure of protection against English duplicity.


    David Cameron looks like a pink Smurf.

    And Ed Miliband...God love him.

    [​IMG]

    I see.

    Scots are mostly socialists.

    Ok, shall we disband UK and be European? Or Worldian? That will go down well with what's left of Little England.

    An EU member called UK, is equally tribal to an EU member called Scotland.

    Indeed, he lived in Edinburgh for a time and no doubt picked that up here, where people were adapting all around him.

    I don't think Salmond is selling much snake oil, the people want what he wants. When independence is achieved, we will see what they really think of him.

    We have run Britain for centuries and there are so many reasons to step back. Fear of failure is not a reason to stay in...

    The economy. Why are you not living up here? There is no work here and that's not going to change. Westminster dictates everything is for London and the South. The North has undergone "managed decline". Westminster isn't interested in this country.
    Drug culture. There used to be none. Westminster decimated the government service which prevented their importation and the country is awash, with all the social impact that has. Pretty sure there will be more accountability when governed more locally, as they have already introduced the alcohol reduction initiatives raised in another thread.
    Socially. As above with the issues arising from drug abuse... but also Sectarianism. This Scottish government has taken legal steps to address it and that is not easy when large swathes of the voting public are involved.
    The military nonsense. Your nickname apart (assuming it means you're military in some way) are you not sick of the country being dragged into war after war in the name of peace but in the pursuit of something quite different?
    National identity...the culture here is completely different and we are used to taking a back seat and being labelled non-productive. I am sick of that label. Our nature is to work hard, produce and be creative. It's a criminal waste of talent to allow this country to languish under developed as it is. And Westminster apart, people will not take it forward until they have ownership and are free of that millstone.

    I could go on all day about reasons to leave...
     
  18. edao

    edao New Member

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    @Viv

    Hows about an independent Scotland having to prop up its banks in another financial meltdown?
    Would you enjoy being in the pocket of the IMF, I doubt SG revenues would cover rescuing one of the world largest banks?

    "Scots are mostly socialists."
    Exactly and that's why Glasgow has one of the highest welfare bills in the UK. You get the same old tired lines about how all the industry has left. Yet it has been clearly proven that the retail boom in Glasgow has produced more jobs and better wages than working on the Clyde or making trains ever did. Outside of London Glasgow is 2/3rd as a retail hub in the UK.


    "Without the EU/European set up, we would be dealing with England's nonsense alone and therefore in a much less strong and possibly dangerous position. Membership within Europe as an independent state is preferable to UK membership and affords a measure of protection against English duplicity."

    Maybe you haven't read a paper recently, let's take a look at the current status of some of the 'independent' EU states.

    Portugal - BROKE BAILED OUT - in the pocket of Germany and the IMF forced into harsh public spending cuts that are tearing the country to pieces

    Greece - BROKE BAILED OUT - in the pocket of Germany and the IMF just a wreck of an economy, they will be lucky if they can stand on their own 2 feet in 10 years time

    Spain - BROKE (IN DENIAL OF A BAILOUT BECAUSE NO ONE CAN AFFORD IT) - Germany and France think they can just change the rules on what a bail out means and how it works and the money markets will just keep buying the worthless Spanish bonds

    Italy - (UNDER GERMAN DICTATORSHIP) - Mario Monti is the German appointed technocrat President, no one ever voted for him but the people Italy owe money to prefer him to the bunga bunga boy Berlusconi, so who needs democracy right it just gets in the way of making money ;)

    France - DELUSIONAL SOCIALISTS PEDDLING EASY ANSWERS - Hollande is enacting a 75% wealth tax, even the most hardened of left wingers have to see that is self defeating in the long term, they have erected a big sign that says DO NOT INVEST IN FRANCE, SUCCESS NOT WELCOME! He's also lowering the retirement age, great idea!

    Ireland - BROKE BAILED OUT - strangely they also have their banks going bust which they bailed out meaning they needed a government bail out, yet Spain are getting a back door deal for their banks to prevent the words 'spanish government bailout' being used, sucks to be Irish!

    Germany - CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT EVERYONES COMPLAINING ABOUT BUSINESS HAS NEVER BEEN BETTER! - Germany's economy just keeps on pumping out crap for the rest of Europe to buy on its credit card. Then their government can shiftly walk over and offer a few euros to pay of that toaster, and maybe you come back next week and we'll see about that iphone bill. Germany have played the game like true masters European states lay at their feet with the noose wrapped tight around each member states neck.

    Good luck 'independent' Scotland!
     
  19. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Did you miss the UK going to the IMF cap in hand when the whole economy was down the toilet? I didn't.

    Did you miss UK going up (*)(*)(*)(*) creek again in the current global economic crisis? I didn't. I'm living it as apparently is most of UK and most of Europe.

    So what do these indisputable facts tell us?

    They tell us the UK is absolutely no protection whatsoever from economic doom.

    Regardless I'd rather go with the financial centre based in Scotland, than the one based in England which is inwardly focused...

    Oh right, there are more jobs and better wages but there are more people out of work. Doesn't even make sense.:roll:

    There is a high welfare bill because there is high unemployment. Do I even need to respond to the rest of this comment? It's insulting at best to mock people who through no fault of theirs are unable to find work.

    Btw I know plenty of people working in horrible call centre jobs and few with decent jobs. Plenty who are underpaid and part-time and unable to get full time work, but hey....they're off the unemployment stats and that's all that matters to Westminster. Very few skilled jobs and few with much more than base pay. I know people who work and simultaneously claim benefit purely to drain the UK economy. And others who do both because their work is sporadic and unstable.

    I missed the fabled "retail boom" though the Scottish government is doing well even with the millstone around its neck and will do better when it's gone.

    You did remake my point alluded to in the previous post... Scottish people are labelled spongers etc although they are not. There can be a certain element of "we don't need to work, those English eejits run at the front pretending to boss everything and we can laugh at them and do exactly whatever we want at their expense, haha". That is not going to change until people are free of UK and given ownership and what else do you expect. Why work very hard for someone else to claim the credit? Why work hard for something that publicly doesn't belong to you and is a source of total embarrassment.

    Who reads papers these days? Have you not heard of electronic comms?

    That entire diatribe is irrelevant as the point made is that Scottish EU membership enables Scotland to be protected by EU from interference or aggression from south of the border. It no longer has to put up with England just in order to achieve peace from war with England.

    Centuries of war and economic crisis were factors in drawing us into the union (being sold out by duplicitous greedy traitorous capitalist bastards apart of course). We no longer have to worry that the English will come up and start killing us and we no longer have to allow a big bunch of nutters to police the border and keep them out. Times have changed. And the EU membership is helpful in that respect.

    However, regarding I noted the words "bail out" in your post and it is good to know that safety net is likely to be present if required whenever we hit an economic crisis. More of a safety net than UK ever was.

    We don't need it. We are hard workers and intelligent, capable people. As UK will find out when it no longer has out talent aound to run UK.
     
  20. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Viv ..... old girl ...... you missed out the most important fact, we supply the oil revenue which allows those Royal and capitalist bastards the right not to pay there taxes. Hence, the sacking of the CEO Revenues and the Vodaphone corruption which cannot be proven, yet!

    As for the police, yes I am worried, they have now put in place Mr Steven House from the met in charge of all police in Scotland.

    As far as I have been told he has two super injunction out protecting him from his real truth and why he shouldn't be entertained in Scotland!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  21. edao

    edao New Member

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    @Viv

    I think it's pretty sad that you are so nationalistic and see the English as some kind of enemy.
    It's these kinds of opinions that cause so much trouble in the world.
    It's people like you that fire rockets over Gaza, the kind of person who will always see it as us and them.

    Where does the anti-English sentiment stop? I mean I could accept a view on independence based around an economic argument (even though I don't agree) but to base it on this I'm a Scot this be the Land of the Scots, Johnny foreigner no welcome!

    You seem to see things in black and white so I'll offer some colour on the Glasgow economic issue.
    Just because there are plenty of jobs doesn't mean people want them, you even go on to admit you know of benefit cheats.
    It's been well documented that Polish/european immigrants have been filling in job vacancies that scum bag Scots are too lazy to work in. An who would blame them when the giro cheque is so easily handed out. The culture of every minor ailment or feeling a bit fed up being labelled depression and your straight on the disability register. Eaten to many pies and your fat oh dear diabetic disability for you then. What teenage mother working her way around every boy in the class has 3 kids well life of benefits to the single mother.

    And before you get all offended I AM SCOTTISH, so you can't paint false romantic images of Scotland. I have lived and worked here most of my life and it is neither culturally or economically prepared to stand on its own two feet, not by a long shot.
     
  22. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Mmmm.... this isn't anti anything, regardless how much you'd like it to be!

    You are not Scottish, you see yourself as British an no doubt you don't understand the reasons why the term came about!

    They do say ignorance is bliss.

    I quote you "Just because there are plenty of jobs doesn't mean people want them, you even go on to admit you know of benefit cheats."

    This to proves your ignorance you have regarding the enforced government economic policies forced on the Scottish nation.

    The Scottish people are the assets of the nation, given a chance to leave the social security culture again enforced on our children they will grow into the people they deserve to be.

    No more will the assets of the nation be used as fodder for illegal wars.

    No more our children taking the crumbs left on the table.

    But I suppose that's my pride of what I am speaking, your pride is south of the border, which your entitled to do and follow your leanings when democracy comes to Scotland.

    But I bet you're really pleased you don't have to pay for medicines, old age care or further education. Only three of many things and of many more to come!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  23. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    An indecently high % of UK strength comes from Scotland and the Scots get no reward for it. From what I heard while in the UK, Scotland has more natural resources than any of the other UK countries, is that correct?? Today as in the last 100 years most British patriotism is possible through the Scottish resourcefullness. When Scotland and England united societies were not based on oil & gas consumption.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland#Oil_and_gas



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/19/scotland-independence-oil


    Fiscal challenge? Unlikely... but imperialists have got to say something... in any case, preventing that is what the EU is all about. Scotland might join or remain outside EU forever. Either way Independent Scotland will have nothing to lose.

    There would be a further problem when the oil and gas started to run out, the IFS said.


    And what if the Scots waited for it to run out as part of the UK? What would be then?? Anyway... world oil is indeed running out but that won't be overnight, not in the next decades. Nevertheless even after those decades pass this resource around Scotland's coast will still exist, a little more than many in the world as it is a huge one, observable at global level and as the oil crisis approaches, oil price in the world will grow exponentially so that would only mean more and more money entering Scotland. I don't see/understand the point here. This looks like a childish cry that blows the cover of its intention and shows in a crystal clear manner that the UK needs Scotland more than Scotland needs the UK.

    GO Scots, GO with it all the way!! Even fine changes in how the world oil is managed visibly change international, intercontinental economy & politics as a whole (a domino effect), let alone a change like this......... ............. GO and the world is then a better place.
     
  24. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Cheers!

    Your right we have nothing to lose and everything top gain.

    The genocide in Scotland brought about the union of the crowns, and enslavement of the Scottish nation to the political whims of those that assisted the genocide.

    Which isn't anti English, only the facts. 1745 was supported and fought by English Welsh and Scots, the usurper won! The loss of English sovereignty as well as loss to all other nations.

    To those that the french produced the guillotine now runs the aristocracy of England! Parasites every one!

    Most oil is transported south of the border via pipelines and the refineries were built also south of the border, only a small part of the total oil in transfered in Orkneys!

    Those responsible also have moved the maritime border 200 miles north, now thats greed for you, like the rogues they are, every last drop of blood will be rung out of Scotland before we allow the English to know what they have running their country!

    Well if they haven't got the Scots as fodder, it will be the English nation that gives there life's blood for their greed.


    Regards
    Highlander
     
  25. edao

    edao New Member

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    What a silly thing to have said. Particularly being from Inverness, Scots living in the central belt having nothing to do with you.
    Its the central belt who will make the decision on Independence not 'highlanders'.

    What was that again? Last time I checked Scotland was one of the richest parts of the world, people from all over Europe are pouring in Scotland looking for work.
    WHY? Because it has one of the best most competitive and developed economies on the planet. This rubbish idea that we are so poor and can't find any work.
    If you can't find a job stop living in the middle of nowhere and go LOOK for work, just because you decided to live in the sticks does mean your due a living.
    Don't think independence means the productive south of Scotland is going to subsdise the pointless rural communities of the north. Your local post office closes and you think its a violation of your human rights.

    This is just romantic drivel, you know nothing of the social problem that fracture inner city Glasgow. It has nothing what soever to do with political union.

    Oh you mean that crumbs that mean that Scots have some of the highest living standards on the planet, that Spaniards, Italians, Greek come here to work in our cafes for minimum wage. You are greedy indeed!


    Exactly because in reality it's unsustainable hence the massive government debt we are now trying to pay off. I don't know about you but I pay the same tax as always but I'm now going to get a whole lot less back for that money. WHy because we borrowed to pay for all those things you mentioned, we handed out and created a culture ox expectancy and dependency. It was so successful that you are proud to tout your need to claim this borrowed money, and want to villanise those who think maybe you need to earn it first.
     

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