Did the story of Job take place before Lucifer's fall?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Daggdag, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    According to Christian dogma, Lucifer was cast out of heave for pride and could never again look upon the face of God. However, in the story of Job, Lucifer speaks with God, challenging him to test Job's faith. This contridicts the idea that Lucifer was bannished from the presence of god, and could no longer be near him.

    According to some scholars, the story of Job comes from a sect of Judaism that believed that Lucifer was not a fallen angel, but the angel of judgment and death. And that he was never cast out of Heaven. It is his job to test the faith of humans and to record their sins in the book of judgement.
     
  2. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ah, good question, and I hope you don't mind having an atheist explain this to you!

    In Judaism, Satan isn't Lucifer. Satan just meant "adversary" and was basically supposed to represent anybody who tested the faith of God's followers. This is why at various points in the Tanakh Satan is personified. In the Book of Job he is just a celelstial being that is subordinate to God and there to play a part in God's divine plan.

    Anyways, the whole character of Satan portrayed by Christianity and Islam was non-existant in the Jewish world at the time the Book of Job was written.
     
  3. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Well the story of Lucifer's fall is based on a myth about Ba'lal.
     
  4. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    Where does it say satan can't look on the face of God in scripture?
     
  5. Independent with a voice

    Independent with a voice New Member

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    I believe it was after his fall. "Whence comest thou?" (Where did you come from?) I think he still had his ways in, but I do believe he was banished to the earth before then. "From going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it." (Him moving about the world, observing things.) I'm not the best at explaining it, but I do believe this much.
     
  6. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    It does not, but churches have been preaching it for centuries. It also does not say that you have to ask a preist for forgiveness and receive last rites from one before you die in order to get into heaven. But that does not stop the catholics, who formed the basis of christianity as we know it, from preaching it. Many things in Christian dogma never actually appear in scripture.....such as the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the bible. The only time Jesus ever calls anyone to heaven before the day of judgement is when he called the rightious dead, those who either died before his crucifixion, but lived good lives, or those who were saved, but died before his return to heaven with him. But the calling of all those who are saved to heaven, with everyone else being left on earth never happens in the bible.
     
  7. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    ¿Lucifer?

    Background:

    -----
    Hi 11,17 et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer
    Hi 38,32 numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis
    Ps 110,3 tecum principium in die virtutis tuae in splendoribus sanctorum ex utero ante luciferum genui te
    Jes 14,12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes
    2Petr 1,19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris .
    ----

    That's it - more is not written about "lucifer" (=lightbringer, morning star) in the whole bible (vulgata). So what are you speaking about?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5XA4SwuPg
     
  8. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    well the CONCEPT of the rapture is a different discussion altogether. Now as for the church teachings, you're right on all accounts, thats why I appreciate the reformation. Catholics din't form the basis of Christianity, Jesus did that with some explanation from Paul.
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good question Elijah!

    I personally am even open to the idea of Satan eventually repenting and coming back to God....much as you and I and every other human on earth is in the process of doing step by step....day by day?!

    Here is an interesting ancient writing that gives another angle on the fall of Lucifer:

    http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/anderson/retellings/Cave.html

    My guess would be that Lucifer loved God but his passionate love got twisted into jealousy which led to lots of other problems such as lying and murder!


    If God the Father the Ancient of Days is as emotionally involved in the creation as Rick Joyner was shown....it is no wonder that Lucifer would become extremely attached??!!


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/63814881/TheVision-The-Final-Quest-the-Call-RickJoyner-PDF

    Pastor Rick Joyner, The Vision, page 85 and 86:

    CHAPTER 15 Worship in Spirit

     
  10. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Book of Job has been looked at several ways: mythology and as the earliest written book in the OT.

    But I do agree that it is often confusing as to the scriptures describing Lucifer vs. also Adam the 1st men. Both wanted to be 'as God' and had similar rebellious characteristics.

    I see it as a 'story' that explains how the righteous are tested (allowed to be tested by the enemy of God who demands 'his right') and how God allows it but rewards the righteous with 'restoration and more.'

    I personally see it as early writings of the followers of monotheism of their time with spiritual truths revealed all thru out the book...I just mentioned a few in this post.
     
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well said OverDrive, yes, both Satan as well as our grandfather Adam both wanted to be as God!

    Back in 1995 a powerful visionary dream was given to Rick Joyner that in my opinion is a brilliant explanation of what Adam has been doing in heaven for the last 5000 years or so!!!

    I think that this message will play a role in fulfilling the prophecy of the hearts of the children being turned to the fathers!

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/west...umanity-by-pastor-rick-joyner/364239236933349
    A message from Adam to all humanity by Pastor Rick Joyner

    This message from the patriarch Adam to mankind written by Pastor Rick Joyner after he had a visionary dream is brilliant and profoundly encouraging. This is from his book The Call.



    http://www.scribd.com/doc/63814881/TheVision-The-Final-Quest-the-Call-RickJoyner-PDF
     
  12. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There most likely was an actual man who went thru some bad things that were spiritualized after the events by those who were familiar with his tribulations. The key is not the letter but the spiritual significance of the book...for those who have ears to hear.
     
  13. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    I'm one of the few cessationist left!
     
  14. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Actually Lucifer and Satan are two different beings. Also, the story of Job is not just a Christian tradition. Also the concept of the Devil has been twisted quite a bit and many books are left out of the Bible.
     
  15. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    Lets start with point 1.
    Who is Lucifer?
    Who is Satan?
    Whats their origination?
    Where do you get your data?
    Who authorized this data?
    Can there be verification of the origination of this data?
     
  16. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    The simple fact is Lucifer comes to us from the Book of Isaiah. In one verse it even says he is a king of Babylon. As he was a king he was elevated above commoners and being "fallen" meant he was disgraced because of his actions. Original texts, this king is known as "Helal (origin of Hallelujah) son of Shahar" which translates directly to "Day Star, son of the Morning". In St. Jerome's time the day or morning star was known as Lucifer (today we know it as the planet of Venus) aka the light-bearer as it was the star that preceded the rising sun. This may not have even been the real name of this king as royalty was commonly described as "shining" or "illustrious". Famous examples would be Christ or King Louis the XIV aka the Sun King. It's ironic that Satan, the Prince of Darkness, is also referred to as a "light-bearer" and no Lucifer was not Satan's name before his fall.

    Well, I have more, but I have to run.
     
  17. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    I see you have google, congratulations. I mean really, i thought you were going to bring something new to the table......
     
  18. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    This wasn't all from Google. Please prove me wrong.
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One of the only other possible sources of information regarding the rebellion of Lucifer may be through near death experience accounts.

    What Dr. Richard Eby was shown would fit nicely with the Gap Theory that postulates the possibility of millions or even billions of years going by between Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2 when the earth BECAME without form and void.


    http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/91.html
    Dr. Richard Eby:


     
  20. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I listened to a Rabbinical sermon that talked about Genisis and talk time to God is different to time for man. 7-days to God could be billions of years to us.
     
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I guess our sun and entire galaxy for that matter revolves around an even more central sun which is another level for the word "day."
     
  22. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    The time of the divine I would believe is different than what is here in this realm. Plus, you have to deal with the problem of translations as the Bible is plagued with tons of mistranslations.
     
  23. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    2 places in the Bible (Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8 ) that says "1 day is as a thousand years with the Lord," a 'divine Being' who lives in eternity, w/o start nor end.

    Scripture could have said "1 day is as a Billion years to the Lord' as the no. 'thousand' was the greatest no. used in the OT.

    And so the undetermined 'eons' of creation would support a man being 'formed' from the dust of the ground, etc. My 'personal' feeling is that God formed man and breathed into him the 'spirit of life' when His creation finally resembled His Son, the 2nd Adam. Then man went from a creature to a 'living soul.'
     
  24. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Too many ppl take the letter of scriptures, as 'inspired by God' (as God breathed) and yet written of men, and miss the Spirit behind them. They get lost in translations and even the personality of the writer and try to come up with a 'formula' rather than seek the spiritual meanings within them. As it is said, "The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life."

    The message of fallen man needing a savior whom is foretold to come is all thru the scriptures if one seeks the 'Spirit' behind them and is not just getting lost in the general verbiage. Another reason why man cant put God in a box, as many have been trying to do for years, and label it 'religion.'
     
    KSigMason and (deleted member) like this.
  25. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    I appologize for my petulant response.
     

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