Gun Control's Actual Results!

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Whaler17, May 1, 2013.

  1. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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  2. nimdabew

    nimdabew Member

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    IBantigunfolk. This doesn't really surprise me, but I was looking for sources of the crime statistics in the article. I couldn't find any.
     
  3. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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  4. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible.
     
  5. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah? I'm just not buying what you're selling!

     
  6. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    Well, shall we look at your claim in the light of day:

    Rape victims (most recent) by country

    # 1 New Zealand: 1.3%
    # 2 Austria: 1.2%
    = 3 Sweden: 1.1%
    = 3 Finland: 1.1%
    # 5 Australia: 1%
    # 6 United Kingdom: 0.9%
    = 7 Netherlands: 0.8%
    = 7 Slovenia: 0.8%
    = 7 Canada: 0.8%
    # 10 France: 0.7%
    = 11 Italy: 0.6%
    = 11 Switzerland: 0.6%
    = 13 Denmark: 0.4%
    = 13 United States: 0.4%

    It would seem that Australia is number 5 in Rape Crimes.

    Assault victims (most recent) by country:

    # 1 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 3%
    # 2 United Kingdom: 2.8%
    = 3 New Zealand: 2.4%
    = 3 Australia: 2.4%
    # 5 Canada: 2.3%
    # 6 Finland: 2.1%
    = 7 France: 1.4%
    = 7 Denmark: 1.4%
    = 9 Sweden: 1.2%
    = 9 United States: 1.2%

    And Australia did better in assaults, coming in at number 3.


    Drug offenses (most recent) by country

    # 1 Germany: 250,969 per 100,000 people
    # 2 United Kingdom: 183,419 per 100,000 people
    # 3 Canada: 92,590 per 100,000 people
    # 4 South Africa: 53,810 per 100,000 people
    # 5 Switzerland: 49,201 per 100,000 people
    # 6 Belgium: 40,856 per 100,000 people


    # 40 Latvia: 629 per 100,000 people
    # 41 United States: 560.1 per 100,000 people

    Australia didn't make the list but look at who's in number 2 and 3 spots.


    Then we have "software" crimes;

    # 93 Norway: 29%
    = 94 Australia: 28%
    = 94 Netherlands: 28%
    # 96 Germany: 27%
    # 97 United Kingdom: 26%
    = 98 Switzerland: 25%
    = 98 Finland: 25%
    = 98 Belgium: 25%
    = 98 Denmark: 25%
    = 98 Sweden: 25%
    = 98 Austria: 25%
    # 104 Japan: 23%
    # 105 New Zealand: 22%
    # 106 Luxembourg: 21%
    # 107 United States: 20%

    So let's take a look and see who has the most total crime victims (most recent) by country;

    # 1 Australia: 30.1%
    # 2 New Zealand: 29.4%
    # 3 United Kingdom: 26.4%
    # 4 Netherlands: 25.2%
    # 5 Sweden: 24.7%
    # 6 Italy: 24.6%
    # 7 Canada: 23.8%
    # 8 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 23.2%
    # 9 Malta: 23.1%
    # 10 Denmark: 23%
    # 11 Poland: 22.7%
    = 12 Belgium: 21.4%
    = 12 France: 21.4%
    # 14 Slovenia: 21.2%
    # 15 United States: 21.1%


    And you want to sit there and defend Australia's crime victim record??
     
  7. Small Town Guy

    Small Town Guy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Quite frankly....I understand and get your post, Thanks
     
  8. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    This could be an excellent opportunity to sort out some erroneous views about crime, crime reporting and relative crime between countries. I hope so anyway.

    But first, let me sum up to this point. Whaler 17 made the point "Britain has become more crime ridden as a result, Australia as well." As a result of what? As a result of "gun control" apparently. Since Australia has had fairly stringent firearms control laws for many, many years, it makes the claim fatuous. What makes it even more fatuous is the implication that having lax firearms control laws actually controls crime. That will be news to the many researchers who try to discover the root causes of crime.

    In response I posted,"Your claim about Australia being crime-ridden is not accurate. So any claim towards suggesting more stringent firearms control laws since 1996 have contributed to an increase in crime which would be described as the country being "crime-ridden" is also not accurate. As for the Brits, I'm sure they can explain the way they measure crime is vastly different from the way crime is measured throughout the US which makes comparisons difficult if not impossible."

    Now here I came up with a couple of claims myself. One is to deny that Australia is "crime-ridden". That goes to a description about crime in Australia. Nowhere did I say it was "low", "high" or "average" in comparison to other nations. Nor did I say it doesn't exist. But I did say Australia is not "crime-ridden" and I will defend that if the thread continues.

    beenthere listed some treated statistics without a link to the source. Since I can't view the source for myself I can't take any notice of those statistics.

    Now before we continue, let's look at crime reporting. The definitions of crimes and how they are reported is going to differ from country to country. They will even differ inside a country. The US is a good example, as is Australia. The UK with its more national approach (Scotland has its own legal system and Northern Ireland has its separate system from England and Wales) is probably more uniform in reporting. Despite Australia having a small population of 23m we have 7 State/Territory criminal justice systems and one Federal justice system all of which measure different crimes in different ways (if you think that's dumb then you'd really get a chuckle out of how we developed our railways). We do have the excellent Australian Institute of Criminology though and that helps a lot.

    The website is here - http://www.aic.gov.au/ - and I would urge anyone interested in getting a true picture of crime in Australia to visit the site and read the materials.

    I look forward to continuing the discussion.
     
  9. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    Blah Blah Blah,

    Well it is fairly obvious that the strict gun controls have not had the effect of reducing crime. You have to admit that much is indisputable given the statistics above.

    go ahead, continue the discussion. Tell me how these laws were SO effective when your crime rates are sunstantially higher than the U.S. with relatively lax gun control.

    At a minimum, you have to admit that comparing the U.S. and what effect some gun control law may have here to what has happened in Australia is nonsense.


     
  10. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    You're confused. The primary reason for gun control - in Australia at least - is to reduce the harm from lawfully owned firearms. Hence the emphasis on licensing of individuals and registration of weapons.

    The instrument for crime control is the criminal law and its attendant functions and agencies. In Australia we understand that the causes of crime are complex and multiple and we work to try and reduce or minimise those causes. We also deal with the effects of crime which is why we have a criminal justice system.

    I also made the point that comparisons across countries regarding crime rates are just about meaningless due to various interpretations of crime and collection and reporting methods.

    There is a lot of nonsense indeed in this thread, much of it hyperbolic nonsense at that. One thing is clear though, the general attitude to firearms in the US and in Australia is very different. Allowing for the cultural differences - the US has a culture of appreciation of firearms and competence with firearms which is clearly historical and understandable and let me say immediately that I'm not judging or being patronising. Have you ever seen the film "Sergeant York"? The main character, York, played by Gary Cooper, demonstrates his prowess with a firearm in his home community, garnering much admiration from his peers for his ability. That film was set just before the entry of the US into the First World War, but the appreciation for competence with a firearm was a major part of American popular culture from the colonial times. In Australia because we developed differently from the US we didn't have firearms appreciation in our culture, although we have had historically a lot of shooting clubs, many of which produced partially-trained soldiers for the wars we have been in. But it's just not as strong in our popular culture. That is a difference - not a marker of superiority or inferiority. But from that from what I've read here and elsewhere it seems many Americans feel there is a need for the ownership of private firearms to protect against criminals. That isn't the case in Australia. So while the statistics may be difficult to compare I think the general attitude of firearms relating to crime control in America is a marker of the crime problems your society has.
     
  11. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what have any of those to do with firearms?

    What about murder where
    Australia comes in at .9, britain at 1.2 and the US at a resounding 4.8 per 100k

    suicides
    With the Us at 12, UK at 11.8 and Australia at 9.7

    Crime has lots of causes. Mainly poverty.

    Gun crime, on the other hand has only one cause.
     
  12. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

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    The only stats I care about.

    In the previous 18 years to 1996 we had 13 mass shootings (4 victims or more) After 1996 we have had none

    Since 1996 we have won more shooting medals at the Olympics than we had for the previous 100 years.
     
  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Oh! Dear Gods! How many time must we debunk this and try (seemingly futilely to teach American that the world is not just like America)

    1) You CANNOT COMPARE COUNTRIES - different laws, enforcement, justice system etc etc
    2) cherry picking one or two incidents does not mean that gun control is not effective - which is what that very dated article is trying to do
    3) pathetic just pathetic - with all the other (mis) information out there an opinion piece from 2002 was the BEST there was?????
     
  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    No excuse - I have already been there several times about this - comparing overall crime statistics between countries is an exercise in futility

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics

    Gee, Wonder what the results would be if you DID have a centralised comprehensive infrastructure like Australia and England does........
     
  15. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I expect Australia would come off badly in a comparison with the USA in the area of Funnel Web Spider bites, or Blue-Ringed Octopus stings, but I am not at all sure what relevance these might have to gun control measures.

    The statistics most relevant to guns, and gun control, would be the number of deaths by gunshot wounds, per capita, each year. Rapes, muggings, and housebreaking, which do not necessarily involve the use of firearms, are of somewhat lesser relevance.

    From 1996 (the year Australia destroyed 700,000 privately owned firearms) to 2003, the total number of gun deaths each year fell from 521 to 289 - a near 50% decrease. The rate since 2003 has been 0.27 per 100,000 people.

    http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=1502

    By way of comparison, the number of deaths from firearm in Great Britain was 39 last year - giving a rate of 0.06 per 100,000 population.

    By way of further comparison, the number of deaths from firearm in the USA is a fairly constant 30,000 - the rate per 100,000 population being 10.8 in 2008.

    So we have rates per 100,000 of death by firearm (all causes -homicide, suicide, and accident) as follow -

    Australia - 0.27
    UK -------- 0.06
    USA ---- 10.80

    Perhaps these 'apples with apples' comparisons could be considered 'actual results'. :)
     
  16. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Leo

    What they also fail to realise is that our statistics are not broken down - so "sexual assault" here includes all assaults including kissing someone against their will

    This is at variance with the USA that only counts actual rapes

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks Leo

    What they also fail to realise is that our statistics are not broken down - so "sexual assault" here includes all assaults including kissing someone against their will

    This is at variance with the USA that only counts actual rapes
     
  17. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    I just want to point out that swedish people are not the ones committing most of these rapes in our country.
     
  18. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    This is hilariously laughable. Australia's violent crime rate is much higher than the U.S.

    An assault rate DOUBLE that of the U.S.!!!

    I think you are confused. Perhaps fewer would happen if innocent people were armed to a greater degree!

    "Rape victims (most recent) by country

    # 1 New Zealand: 1.3%
    # 2 Austria: 1.2%
    = 3 Sweden: 1.1%
    = 3 Finland: 1.1%
    # 5 Australia: 1%
    # 6 United Kingdom: 0.9%
    = 7 Netherlands: 0.8%
    = 7 Slovenia: 0.8%
    = 7 Canada: 0.8%
    # 10 France: 0.7%
    = 11 Italy: 0.6%
    = 11 Switzerland: 0.6%
    = 13 Denmark: 0.4%
    = 13 United States: 0.4%

    It would seem that Australia is number 5 in Rape Crimes.

    Assault victims (most recent) by country:

    # 1 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 3%
    # 2 United Kingdom: 2.8%
    = 3 New Zealand: 2.4%
    = 3 Australia: 2.4%
    # 5 Canada: 2.3%
    # 6 Finland: 2.1%
    = 7 France: 1.4%
    = 7 Denmark: 1.4%
    = 9 Sweden: 1.2%
    = 9 United States: 1.2%

    And Australia did better in assaults, coming in at number 3."



     
  19. der wüstenfuchs

    der wüstenfuchs Member

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    Does that include sheep or are they a second category? :p


    But seriously it's interesting to see crime rates.

    US crime data table
    Table builder tool

    I had to screen cap it since I didn't see a means to link to the table I used but crime rates steadily increased until it reached an all time in 1991. Starting in 1992 crime rates started to decline. In 1994 the assault weapons ban was enacted and crime rates continued to decline. In 2004 the AWB expired. For a couple years the crime rate went up a little bit then continued to decline on its own without further legislation.
     
  20. stjames1_53

    stjames1_53 Banned

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    no guns = more crime
    you're splitting hairs.........some say because we have guns, we are all murders. and we know that's not true.
    Still yet, violent crime is still violent crime and according to the statistics, you're one of the leading nations with one of the some of highest rates of violent crime. All you can say is that it wasn't done with guns. See how achievable the rise in crime can be when your government is in charge?
     
  21. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What are the sources for these?

    In most of Europe, America and other Western countries there isn't going to be fantastic difference among them in crime. In Western countries it is the large cities with their violent multi-ethnic groups that do a disproportionate amount of crime.

    Studies like what you have shown are not accurate, because most of the 3rd world does not do any sort of statistical reporting---at all!

    In places like Cameroon in Africa, they report low crime, but in this brutal, corrupt, backwater nation there isn't even a 911 call service. There is hardly any police to report a crime. Usually just an ambulance, if you're near a larger city. Rapes, murders and every other sort of violent crime go on, and there is no reporting.

    The uninformed masses here in the West just assume everywhere crime is reported and dealt with the same as is it here. They think that in places like Cameroon, when there is a violent crime, the police will come out, make a report, then the CSI unit (like the ones on TV) will come out and take detailed reports and tests. Then the national government will end up taking all the information by some agency that doesn't exsist and report it to the UN.

    Here is what our state Dept says about the place:

    Cameroon has no local equivalent to the “911” emergency line; dial 112 in major cities to contact ambulance services.

    CRIME: Crime is a serious problem throughout Cameroon. U.S. citizens should exercise caution when traveling in Cameroon. Internet-based crime emanting from within Cameroon is escalating rapidly, and everyone, including businesses and other institutions, should be extremely skeptical of any financial transactions that involve sending money for goods, services, or adoptions. Crimes against property, such as carjacking and burglaries, have often been accompanied by violent acts and resulted in fatalities. All foreigners are potential targets for theft with possible attendant violence. Armed banditry has been a problem throughout all ten regions in Cameroon. In January 2011, more than 20 Peace Corps volunteers were robbed at gunpoint in Kribi. In December 2010, a U.S. citizen who was residing in Douala was murdered, and in Yaounde, a U.S. citizen and a British citizen were sexually assaulted in separate incidents in March 2011. In August 2012, a U.S. citizen who was residing in Bamenda was murdered, and a British family was held at gun point in their hotel room for almost an hour in the middle of the night. Shortly after the attackers left, one of the victims went for help only to be shot at several times. This incident happened in the vicinity of Melong and the Mount Manengouba National Park in the Littoral Region. In the past, armed bandits have erected road barricades to steal vehicles. While there have been no major incidents of banditry involving westerners since 2010, travelers may encounter random security checkpoints intended to curb the practice.

    The risk of street and residential crime is high. Incidents often involve gangs and relate to home invasion and kidnapping. Periodic efforts by authorities to clear streets and public spaces of illegally constructed homes and market stalls can become confrontational, and may contribute to surges in criminality as these very modest homes and businesses are destroyed.

    Piracy in coastal areas remains a problem. While mostly occurring at sea, criminal groups have also conducted armed raids against lucrative coastal targets including banks. Heightened security measures begun in 2009 have reduced the number of attacks. If you are visiting any coastal areas in Cameroon, you should be alert to the threat of piracy and move inland if you detect a potential threat. If you are caught in such an attack, you should comply immediately with any demands made by the aggressors and avoid any action that could be interpreted as an attempt to escape. See our fact sheet on International Maritime Piracy.

    http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1081.html
     
  22. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    :wall::wall: I need a drink and for some reason I feel like a Harvey Wallbanger:wall::wall:

    For the umpteenth time YOU CANNOT COMPARE CRIME STATISTICS ACROSS NATIONS

    For a start the US does not have a centralised data collection method for crimes that are not federal. So if you get into a pub fight in "Backwater" Mississippi then that may or may not end up on the central crime register. You get into a pub fight here and it will be entered onto our central register

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics

    http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/cfi/101-120/cfi115.html
     
  23. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    GREAT, so now if you cannot compare crime stats between nations because they are simply too different, it stands to reason that you likewise cannot claim that one gun control measure in one country will have a desirable effect in another!!!!

    Banging your head like that is likely what led you to your stance on abortion! :grin:

     
  24. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    And Americans don't commit half of the murders in our country, illegals do that for us in their drug wars but we get the blame anyway. so, do as we do, live with it.
     
  25. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I confine my discussions to homicide statistics - harder to fudge homicide between nations

    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/po...cities-compared-deadliest-nations-world/4412/

    We enacted a raft of legislation and it is difficult to tell which had the most effect, but given your homicide rate I really believe you have to do something. That something might simply be a "public health" type of campaign
     

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