Why would you want to force someone to have a kid? The sane person asks

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by VanishingPoint, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. VanishingPoint

    VanishingPoint Active Member

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    “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others,” Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Notes on the State of Virginia, adding, “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

    Now, while it certainly does one no harm for her neighbor to simply assert this viewpoint or that, it does both pick her pocket and break her leg–or worse–when her neighbor’s views are dangerous delusions that are then enshrined in law.

    Jefferson was indeed wrong; it does us all injury for our neighbors to claim any kind of moral authority because of an otherworldly being and his/hers/its direct and personal messages. The problem with such a thing is that one can’t challenge a claim that by definition is without falsifiable evidence, and therefore any act can be justified.

    Continue...
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For similar reasons as to why we prevent people from committing suicide......
    or continually cutting themselves.....
    having an abortion puts a woman on a collision with guilt and other psychological problems.

    Google the name Denise Mountenay for more information. She had a couple of abortions and she said that the guilt was pretty awful.

    Far less trouble over the long term to give the baby up for adoption and do your best to find them a loving home......
     
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Oh Baloney! Sexist baloney that claims that what one woman feels all women must feel.

    Having children ALSO may, for SOME women, put a woman on a collision with guilt and other psychological problems.

    you don't care.


    Most women express relief....so contact Denise and ask her why she isn't like all other women who have abortions since you think all women are the same......




    No, YOU don't get to decide what is best for pregnant women :nana:.

    No woman is under obligation to donate her body, have to suffer the temporary and permanent damage of pregnancy and child birth, risk her life ( ALL pregnancies carry the risk of death) , suffer financial/educational/career setbacks , suffer the separation from her child JUST TO GIVE SOMEONE ELSE A KID AND MAKE YOU HAPPY.

    :)
     
  4. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The vast majority of women who abort don't regret it.


    There is a substantial risk of emotional problems after placing a child for adoption. Adoptees are also at higher risk for problems than non adoptees.

    http://www.originscanada.org/adopti...n-trauma-the-damage-to-relinquishing-mothers/

    https://adoption.com/adoption-related-suicide-statistics-prevention
     
  5. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Pure BS, incidental reports from cherry picked sources do not give licence to assume that "having an abortion puts a woman on a collision with guilt and other psychological problems."
     
  6. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    We do try to protect people from hurting themselves, so that logic suggests that if a woman wants to have a child, but the medical evidence suggests it might kill her, the government should step in and force her to have an abortion (instead of giving her the option to risk, or even sacrifice her own life, for this potential child). Governmental power can cut both ways. Would you really support a law that allows the government to insist on an abortion against the pregnant woman's objections?

    Do we really prevent people from doing things because they might feel guilty? If a newborn in the local hospital needs transplanted liver tissue to survive, and your daughter is the only person the authorities can find with matching tissue type, does the government have the power to force her to undergo surgery to donate a small part of her liver to sustain the life of that child? Not in the USA. If she didn't do it... isn't there the risk that she might be racked by horrible guilt when the newborn dies? According to your premise, the government should force her to donate tissue to avoid that possible guilt. Would you really support a law that forces one person to donate organs or tissue to another person?

    I observe that the government does not force one actual person to risk a medical procedure to sustain the life of an actual person, but some people claim the government should force an actual person to invest nine months to sustain the life of a potential person.

    Who do you think has more legal or moral standing... an actual person or a potential person?
     
  7. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Blacks have triple number of abortions as to percentage of population...
    :omg:
    CDC: 35% of Babies Aborted in 2013 Were Black
    November 28, 2016 – Although black Americans make up 13.3% of the U.S. population, they comprised 35% of the total abortions “reported” – 128,682 babies killed -- in 2013, according to the latest Abortion Surveillance report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
     
  8. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is their number of pregnancies as to percentage of population?
     
  9. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    100% of people who have/had abortions they themselves were not aborted.

    One would call into question why it's OK to terminate one life as long as it's not their own. There is this thing called the word "no" as well as birth control and abortion IS NOT birth control, it kills the unborn child.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Was there a point somewhere in there??

    Did you want to discriminate against black women and not allow them access to abortions?

    What?
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So , you have never discussed abortion before. OK, I suggest you read a few threads in this forum to give you at least a base of understanding so you don't say silly things like , "just don't have sex"....(only people with no sex drive and no knowledge of the world say that).
     
  12. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    let's at least get a concensus on a few things

    Would you agree that 100% of women who have abortions were themselves not aborted?

    Would you agree that not having sex results in no pregnancy?

    those 2 questions are a good starting point
     
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No point there.




    No point there.

    For what?
     
  14. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    Do you hunt? or eat meat? If so, you are responsible for terminating a life that is not your own. Those lives are more advanced than the unborn zygote/embryo/fetus in the womb.

    An abortion prevents the full development of a person sometime after sperm and egg have combined. Failure to have coitus prevents the development of a person before sperm and egg combine. To prove that failure to have coitus injures a person you would have to prove that the sperm (or egg) has qualities of person-hood. To prove that an abortion injures a person you would have to prove that the zygote/embryo/fetus has qualities of person-hood.
     
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  15. flagrant_foul

    flagrant_foul New Member

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    Abortion in very early pregnancy is almost exactly the same as hormonal contraception. Hormonal contraception like the pill aborts human life because it aborts a fertilized egg.

    So I think abortion is "birth control" for sure.

    Can I ask you, when do you feel a person's option to use specific methods of birth control has past?
     
  16. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Yes and yes. Point?
     
  17. flagrant_foul

    flagrant_foul New Member

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    While I don't feel the need to enter the 'guilt discussion' for multiple reasons....

    I think the use of the word "potential", in this context, is slightly more simplified, although technically accurate.

    For example, a 39 week fetus is a potential person but the moral and ethical choice of terminating its existence without justification for the health of the mother is not very clear at all.

    Mostly because its potential to become its own individual has such a high likelihood.
     
  18. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    It does feel like more of a tragedy when the abortion (or miscarriage) happens near the end of gestation, but that is a trick of the mind based on the investment (most of which is by the pregnant woman) that was involved in getting a human body that close to actual birth. Think of it like a house under construction.
    If the lumber is delivered to the site and a mudslide carries it away, that is tragic but it's only money.
    If the house is built and the painters need another day to finish the inside trim and a mudslide carries it away, that seems more tragic because there has been more effort invested into that house and it was so close to being finished. This is tragic for whoever lost money on the materials and labor, and it may even be tragic for the craftsmen who invested care and attention on the project.
    If a family moves into the house and a mudslide carries it away (killing the family), that is real tragedy because the house was inhabited by actual persons who had actual lives (in the person-hood sense, not just in the cellular sense).

    I have been unable to find any evidence that the fetus can get enough oxygen to begin actual thought while inside the womb (let alone overcome the sedatives in the blood) without entering fetal distress (the same reaction you would have if you were under water for more than 30 seconds) and burning up oxygen even faster. As far as I know the only way to handle fetal distress is to induce birth as soon as possible (which still places the activation of the mind at or about the moment of birth).

    Even if I believed the mind of the fetus could be active in the last 4 weeks or so of pregnancy, I have concerns that a law restricting abortions in those last few weeks is really designed to protect the feelings of the pro-lifers and places an undue burden on the pregnant woman. Here is an example of the typical pregnant woman who obviously wanted a child but was forced to jump through hoops to get an abortion when she needed one:
    https://www.texasobserver.org/we-have-no-choice-one-womans-ordeal-with-texas-new-sonogram-law/

    I have yet to find an example of a pregnant woman who waited (of her own free will) until the week before her due date and arbitrarily decided to request an abortion. Perhaps someone in the pro-life camp has a link to a reliable source that describes the event.
     
  19. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    I am happy to be labeled as "pro-life" and the opposite of life is death, so that makes you pro ................
     
  20. flagrant_foul

    flagrant_foul New Member

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    Can you please answer my question to you about when specific birth control methods are no longer an option?

    I sure would be curious to know and understand some of the complex positions that people have on the subject.
     
  21. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    pregnancy prevention is completely acceptable. Life is life and as simple as black and white
     
  22. flagrant_foul

    flagrant_foul New Member

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    I don't always like metaphors or parables. I do like the discussion of ethics tho so I appreciate your input.

    Lots of problems deciding which parts of the metaphor are similar to the parts of the actual subject at hand. But I do know what you're getting at. It would be similar to a man who was murdered a day before retirement. A man who worked his whole life to save so he could travel the world and experience all the things he had dreamed of. I'm not talking about that kind of potential. I'm talking about a quality that is inherent yet protections can't be afforded until requirements are met. I am not sure what metaphors might arise, perhaps mortgages or investments with maturity dates. Not sure.

    I do not approve much of tactics to manipulate any policy. I prefer up front discussion on solutions to these problems.

    I highly doubt any Pro-Life person could provide a link to any source that describes a woman trying to have an abortion a week before it's due. It would be viewed as unethical and physicians wouldn't provide one.
     
  23. flagrant_foul

    flagrant_foul New Member

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    The pill is a hormonal contraception. The information provided by the manufacturers, it says that a mechanism of action to prevent pregnancy is to abort a fertilized egg. If life begins at conception (when an egg is fertilized), and the pill aborts a fertilized egg, is a woman who is on the pill causing abortions?
     
  24. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    I am happy to be labed pro choice as the opposite of choice is forced coercion so that makes you.....
     
  25. RandomObserver

    RandomObserver Active Member

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    I use all sorts of mental experiments to try to figure out which aspects of a problem are significant. Sometimes they help... sometimes not.

    I agree that it is unlikely that a woman has obtained an abortion at the last minute for totally arbitrary reasons, but with all the pro-life talk about the importance of protecting against such a woman... one would think there would be some documentation of at least one attempt to get a last-minute abortion for reasons other than a request that was delayed by anti-abortion activity or serious health problem affecting the mother and/or fetus. I would expect the media to be all over an incident like that.
     

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