Debate with a professional Holocaust Denier

Discussion in 'Conspiracy Theories' started by Ronstar, Aug 4, 2013.

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  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I had the following debate over email with the author of a Holocaust denial book, who shall remain unnamed for now.

    I have removed his and my email address for privacy reasons.

    Please, read and give me your view of this debate:

    ME:

    Good afternoon. What are the conclusions of your book? I have done my own research and I believe that number of Jewish Holocaust victims is closer to 4.5 million, not 6 million. This was done by comparing the number of Jews listened in European countries, from a 1929 census of Jews in the World. I compared this to the number of Jews considered killed in each country under Nazi occupation. For example, it is believed that there were 3.3 million Jews in Poland, while in the 1929 census there were 2.8. That's a difference of 500,000. That's no chump change.

    HIM:

    I suspect the death total is under 1 million. There are problems with national censuses, and of course 1929 was well before the war - lots of emigration occurred in the following 10 years. I suggest you read Chap 3 of the book, which shows the revisionist case pretty clearly, based on global (not national) figures.

    ME:

    Under 1 million? that just can't be. There were 18 million Jews in the world in 1929..and maybe 13 million after WW2. Today there aren't even 14 million Jews. Clearly a good 4 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Not to mention the millions of Poles, Russians, and Germans murdered by the Nazis.

    HIM:

    jewishvirtuallibrary.org suggests about 15M in 1929, and 16.7M just before the war. But their statistics for 1900-1940 cannot be right, since they require a very high growth rate -- about 3x the rate after the war, which makes no sense. Pre-war numbers were likely inflated by 30-40%. Also the NYT reports on a global total of just 6M in 1889, and there is no way the pop could have tripled in 40 years. See Chap 3.

    ME:

    http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_408.html

    at the bottom of this web page, are whole host of many census #s for the World Jewish population from 1900 to today. They vary greatly. Some say there are 18 million Jews in the world today, some say 12 million.

    Clearly, figuring out the number of Jews in the world is a difficult endeavor, and it is only academically sound to compare data from different time periods, from the SAME source, in order to get an accurate reading of possible fraud or deceit when it comes to pre-WW2 and post- WW2 Jewish population data.

    Comparing possibly OVER-estimated pre-WW2 stats., with possibly UNDER-estimated post- WW2 stats.,(all from different sources) in order to suggest that there were very few Jewish Holocaust deaths...is absolutely ridiculous.


    HIM:

    Fine -- so stick with the Jewish Virtual Library as the 'single' source, which takes data from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. Is there a comprehensible explanation for a very large, 1.4% annual growth rate for the 40 years before the war, but then a 0.3% annual rate for the 50 years after the war? That's a factor of (almost) 5 difference. Unlikely, I would say.

    ME:

    #1. It is highly unprofessional, academically dishonest, and frankly very suspect, to compare pre-war census data from source A to post-war census data from source B and claim to have found an error. One can only compare pre-war and post-war data from the same source if one is going to argue any sort of inconsistency, fraud, mistake, etc.

    #2. You say it is impossible for the Jewish population of Europe to have tripled in 40 years , yet the Palestinians claim that their population doubled between the years 1922 and 1945 (670,000 to 1,200,000), and almost tripled between 1897 and 1945 (489,000 to 1,200,000).

    So, why are such supposedly incredible population increases possible for the Palestinian population of the Middle East, but not the Jewish population of Europe?


    ME:

    have you researched this issue of a disparity between pre-WW2 and post-WW2 world Jewish population growth rates...or do you simply disregard it as "impossible" and therefore see it as clear-cut evidence of a giant census data conspiracy?

    If you look at census data for other populations..sometimes they grow at 2%..sometimes they grow at 3%..sometimes 1%.

    what is my first guess as to explain this disparity in Jewish pop. growth rates? perhaps a great deal more inter-marriage, smaller families, increase in socio-economic status, ...the GUESSES are endless..but that's all they are...guesses.

    though, this is is a fascinating topic, and I will look into explanations for the sudden and long term dramatic drop in Jewish population growth. I hope you will too


    ME:

    http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm

    Here is an interesting website that directly deals with the issue of the almost zero growth rate of the world's Jewish population since WW2.

    Massive urbanization, inter-marriage, the loss of the European home base, much smaller Jewish families, and long term shock from the Holocaust, seem to all be contributing factors.

    The world's Jewish population has actually decreased over the years, and appears to be headed further in that direction.




    The Holocaust Denier didn't respond after this.
     
  2. Jango

    Jango New Member

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    Unless I missed it, it appears as though he's not a denier of the holocaust, but a minimizer, as he said under one million. That is still a lot of dead Jewish people, though far from the real number. You yourself minimize the holocaust too. Four and a half million dead Jewish people is a lot, but again, is far from the real number. When considering how many Jewish people actually died, one mustn't stick strictly to the statistics of the era. I suspect they're highly suspect. If six million is somewhat readily agreed upon as a baseline, the last thing a person wants to do is minimize the deaths of a few hundred thousand/million individuals who died horribly. A safer work is that the statistics are understating the amount of deaths. German propensity to kill a Jew during that time was extraordinarily high. Never underestimate it.
     
  3. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What I've found in debates with holocaust deniers, and in with fallacious arguers in general, is that they always open with a gambit that attempts to focus on areas of contention, and then inflates that contention as much as possible. They feel that if they exploit the contention, they can then argue that the entire story is false, (even their original argument) and then can make an argument for their entirely different story.

    For instance I've seen:

    1. A number on a plaque at a memorial site was changed from a large number to a smaller number.

    2. The original number was inflated as propaganda

    3. No Jews were killed they all hid behind the Ural mountains.

    Or something like:

    1. Many Jews died of typhus, not execution.

    2. The Germans attempted to combat this disease by fumigating for lice.

    3. If the Germans had used more Zyklon-B, more Jews might have survived life in the concentration camps.
     
  4. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I'd rather take a kick in the balls that deal with Holocaust deniers.
     
  5. Jango

    Jango New Member

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    I wouldn't go THAT far... but ear plugs and the ignore function work just fine.
     
  6. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  7. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  8. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    Fangbeer has nailed it. At least this bloke didn't actually say it never happened like some of them do. But they will use a minimisation technique - "oh it wasn't as bad as all that..." sort of approach. One day it will be in the DSM.
     
  9. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    That's a very vague issue and easy to obfuscate.

    http://www.opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1222
    (excerpt)
    ---------------------------------------
    4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
    ---------------------------------------

    I pointed out in the other discussion that you weren't a serious debater.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995125

    I wouldn't be surprised if that was a bogus debate.

    Here are two more videos that any serious truth-seeker should watch.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1owF0vgnw&bpctr=1376830507
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx9G4zmpKv0
     
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  11. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    You're trying to mislead those viewers who don't click on all the links and look at everything. I guess I'll have to post the info in the link to thwart you.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995125

    You said this.
    I countered with this.
    This is my next post.
    Your response was a handwaving response that didn't address the issues in the posts.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-27.html#post1062995407
    There. Those viewers who don't click on links and look at the issues can see your evasive tactics. You don't even seem to believe your own arguments.
     
  12. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Holocaust is true.

    Eichmann admitted it. David Irving now admits it.
     
  13. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  14. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I am telling the viewers the truth.

    Eichmann admitted to the Holocaust before he was captured by the Israelis.

    Notorious Holocaust-denier David Irving has changed his views and now admits the Nazis murdered millions of Jews.
     
  15. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    That came from Life Magazine. Here's some info about the American media.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673

    Do you take everything that comes from the American media as fact? That might be a bogus interview. It also doesn't make this go away.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1owF0vgnw&bpctr=1376852211
    "Judea Declares War on Germany" (Complete)

    Watch between the 46:40 and 50:15 time marks. There's a guy checking out the rubble of the supposed actual gas chambers. He says it's all consistent with morgues and inconsistent with gas chambers.
     
  16. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you have still yet to supply any direct information that the Life interview is false.

    all you provide is irrational & illogical bigotry.
     
  17. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  18. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    that is irrational & illogical bigotry, not a sound view on the Life interview.

    do you have anything substantial to counter the Life interview?
     
  19. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  21. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Translation:

    The info in that link makes it so clear that the American media can't be trusted that I'd better avoid dealing with it.

    The info in this link is considered to be pretty basic nowadays.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673

    Politically informed people know the American media can't be trusted and is the worst source of information.

    You seem to be checkmated here.
     
  22. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so you have no evidence that the Life magazine interview is fake.

    glad to hear it.
     
  23. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    The American media which includes Life Magazine is famous for lying as the info in this link shows.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673

    You're being pretty simplistic. The American media lies. There were articles in Life, Time, and Readers Digest that assumed we were the good guys and supported freedom and democracy in the world. That turned out to be a lie.
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145531

    Doesn't this move you a little bit?
     
  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    do you have any evidence that the Life magazine interview is a lie?
     
  25. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    You're being pretty simplistic.

    We know the American media lies to Americans about political issues.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/zionist-agenda/317262-evidence-holocaust-26.html#post1062994673

    Here's a classic example.
    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145531

    Knowing all of this, only a simpleton would take something about politics from Life Magazine as fact. You're presenting that article as genuine when it comes from a source that's famous for lying.

    Tell us this. Do you believe that the US defends freedom and democracy in the world? There are probably some articles in Life that assume it does.
     

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