How pure are the Jews? Does 65% 'Judean' sound about right?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by klipkap, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    …. (continued) ….

    Face Your’s original post can be found here - http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...ive-hiroshima-comments-19.html#post1063019692. This new thread is to avoid off-topic contamination of that original excellent piece by him, yet to contribute to it.


    What does that mean? It simply means that more than 50% of the Jewish DNA character is common to all Jews. This is turn means that something up to 50% is NOT common to all Jews. Now that seems like pretty strong support for what I posted.

    OK, so that means that on average 35% of the Ashkenazim DNA is not from the southern Levant. That still seems like “considerably more hybridisation” to me.

    It took me a while to understand this, but Face Your’s most lengthy quote was not from either Atzmon et. al. (2010) nor from Behar et. al.’s excellent 2012 scientific paper. Instead, it was from a piece written for Forbes Magazine by Jon Entine (click for source)
    As Face Yours showed, on average 35% of the Ashkenazim DNA is non-Levantine; i.e. non-Middle Eastern. Now that does not sound like “a small percent”. I think that we can safely categorise Entine as a Hasbara specialist.

    Entine bases his piece on a publication in “The Genetic Library Project”. I followed that link and entered “Khazar” in the search-box and ended up here – “Researchers Feud Over Jewish Genes” at http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/177028/researchers-feud-over-jewish-genes/ It is a blog by someone called Gal Beckerman. Who on earth is this genetic expert? He isn’t. He publishes on a web site called “The Jewish Daily Forward” and his theme is defending the Zionist position. He is also a ‘hasbara’ specialist. Allow me to quote from his blog:
    WOW!! How analytical. How scientific!! Yup … sounds like Hasbara to me also … attack the messenger and cast nasturtiums around. But at least he provides a reference source. Unfortunately it is to another “The Jewish Daily Forward” article by someone called Rita Rubin. OK, so who is he? The only other piece that I could find by him was how people could investigate their Jewish heritage. Oy Vey!! But let is investigate this “even deeper source” without being too cynical at the contortions so far.

    OK, so let us find out where Prof. Feldman wrote that by Googling “Marcus Feldman – Eran Elhaik”. Well, it is like being in a tumble-drier. Everything ends back at the two writers at “Jewish Forward” – Entine and Rubin. There are no verifiable references to Prof Feldman. So at best we have Rita Rubin, him being the “deepest” source”, who write:
    OK. OK. We are back to the story that >50% of the Ashkenazim genes are from the southern Levant. But where does that tell us that, say, 20% could not have come from Khazars, and, say, another 15% from southern Mediterranean (Helenic) people? More by Rubin:

    OOOPS!! So Rubin says that Elhaik is proposing that the Ashkenazim genes are NOT from the southern Levant. OK, let us check Elhaik’s paper - http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf
    Elhaik’s main these is that, based on tests on an expanded scope of peoples, including for the first time data from Caucasians, the Kazarian hypothesis “wins”. The Jews joined the Khazars who converted to their faith: But there is more Levantine input according to Elhaik:
    OK, he clearly believes that the evidence shows that two Jewish streams joined with converted Khazars. Why had this Khazar genetic link not been identified by Ostler. Feldman, Behar, Hammer, etc.?
    OOOOFF. Familiar as I am with the defensive pride of academic scientific cliques, I can see why this should have caused Feldman’s reactions to be negative … if only I could find where he wrote this.
    OK, we are still looking for where Elhaik concluded that “Elhaik says he has proved that Ashkenazi Jews’ roots lie in the Caucasus” as Rita Rubin claims. In fact, Eilank continuously repeats that the Khazars were converted by a stream of Jews from the southern Levant and that, with time, this was added to by influxes of Mediterranean Jews. He concludes:
    I am quite happy that my conclusion that:
    … stands strong. The Khazarian link has certainly NOT been debunked. How could it if until a year ago there was no Caucasian data to be used.
     
  2. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    And what are the Muslim??????????????????
    Are they homogenous like you pretend the Jews are not???
    Muslims are a cult that incorporate the descendants of all the conquered countries by Islam in the seventh Century
     
  3. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Nazis used to deal with Jewish DNA character ... Do their followers have more questions after 6000000 dead ?
     
  4. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Was that strawman meant to be a rebuttal?

    35% of Ashkenazim DNA is not from Judea.---- FACT (ask Face Your)

    They got that contamination while taking a 2000 year gap in their residency in Palestine, when mainly the boys gefoogled with local ladies. Other Palestinians who loved their land more than their religion stayed on in Palestine throughout. Guess what we call them today. Some of them still practice Jewish customs.

    More than half the Jews by personal choice still prefer to live in the diaspora.

    What was your point again, MGB Roadster
     
  5. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    How many Arabs & Muslims do not live in Arab & Muslim countries ??? In Europe alone there are about 50 Million Muslims.
    What's your point ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country
     
  6. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Answering a question with a question instead of addressing your opponent's contribution, is poor quality debate.

    You have still not defended your position that Palestinians = Bedouin.
    That is also a poor show. [General observation: Trolls tend to do it more than others do]
     
  7. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Muslims today are a bunch of bastardized, ok I will agree and opt for your definition <contaminated> lot...
    And you have the temerity the chuzpah to attack Jews from your boiler room in the UK?
     
  8. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    OMG - I presume that you've not had any direct - contact with any muslim - in the real world.

    AFAI can tell - Muslims do not / never have claimed to be a race or homogenous .
    I think it means "submission " one who submits .
    Do some checking instead of blabbering a load of nonsense.

    tata...
     
  9. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Banned

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    The comparison should be with palistinians, not all muslims.

    This is how zionists argue, go to watch them every second.
     
  10. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What's the big deal?

    Should anyone be surprised that given their history that jews like virtually every other geographically dispersed peoples have a diverse genetic background?

    Any effort to discredit or delegitimize ancient jewish claims to Israel thru DNA are spurious and irrelevant.
     
  11. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    The "big deal " is that most so-called pseudo-quasi "Jews" -" Zionist Jews" will go to enormous/extreme lengths , argue like hell and viciously attack anyon who dares to say anything which questions their ridiculous land claims , and or refuse to go along with their crap about being 100 percent descended from biblical characters

    IN america some people have branded as "anti-semites " /Jew haters / lost their jobs/lively hoods for expressing doubts about Zionist claims.,

    ..
     
  12. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sounds more like a bunch of jew haters getting their noses out of joint.

    Biblical land claims do not a nation make. Israel does not exist because of the bible.
    And DNA arguments about the origin of jewish populations might be interesting to geneticists, but neo-zionists and jew haters fixation on the subject almost reflect two sides of the same coin.

    Funny how many of your kind rail against the jews for thinking themselves "descendant" from biblical characters. Ever heard of adam and eve?


    No, they have not.
    They have lost their jobs or been branded as anti-semites/jew haters for the way in which they "expressed" those doubts.
    Odd that I have to point that out such an obvious nuance to one of your extensive experience.
     
  13. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Why the comparison should be with palestinian Bedouin, not all muslims ?
    Let's play your weird game - How many Palestinians live in Chile ? - 500,000 , Brazil - 150000, Canada - 224000, Australia - 215000 ,
    Europe - 100000, Honduras - 254000 etc.. etc...
    Again - what's your point ?
     
  14. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    HUH ? I'm sure you're well aware that the overwhelming "Jews" in Israel and even amongst todays the diaspora Jews - who'd disagree with you .

    LOL - have you ever heard of Santa Clause ? guys called Abram , Noah , Micky Mouse or a gal called Lucy ?

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/huma...e-contemporary-relatives-had-feet-like-an-ape

    Let's also not forget that "God so loved the world that he drowned every S O B who would'nt listen to him,- including those who've never heard of him + all Adam + Eve's descendents , except for some plonker called Noah + his wife /bint , whatever .. :roll:

    ...Darwin if more believable .



    ..
     
  15. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 42: 18-20

    Pure bred Javanese are Muslim.
     
  16. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Of course not, Jonsa, and THAT is the whole point. Marlowe expressed it perfectly.

    But the wailing goes on daily that it was fine to take another People's territory, and then to take more; and then to take more; and yesterday to take even more, because ....

    Because why?

    1) Because God promised this land to the Jews.

    1.1) Wait a bit. He also took it away from them on various occasions.
    1.2) Thirty-eight percent of secular Jews living in Israel keep kosher often or at all times, while 36 percent of Israeli families that define themselves as secular light Shabbat candles

    So much for the religious angle.

    2) Jews have an intense link to the land they left over 2000 years ago

    2.1) OK, in that case why do >50% of them prefer to continue living in the diaspora?

    So my beef is not that their origins have been diluted. It is that they pretend that that has not happened. That raises flags with me. It starts to sound awfully like a convenient excuse for territory acquisition.
     
  17. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    well, its the Jews who are the ones doing all the genetic research on fellow Jews, trying to prove all Jews are not related to their neighbors and have a direct genetic link to Palestine.

    so in some ways, we can blame them.
     
  18. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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  19. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    Just a reminder :

    The Invention of the Jewish People: Today&#8217;s Jews did not descend from the ancient Israelites. DNA science proves that the &#8220;Jews&#8221; in Israel and around the world are predominantly of Khazar stock. They are mainly a Turkish-Mongol blood mixture, says Dr. Shlomo Sand, a Jew, and distinguished history professor from Tel Aviv University in Israel. Sand&#8217;s heavily documented book is turning the Jewish world upside down.

    One amazing fact is that the &#8220;Jews&#8221; who went to Israel from Europe in 1948 and set up the new nation have no history as a people of Israel. Instead, their ancestors were converts to Judaism. So those today who say they are &#8220;Jews&#8221; are not of Abraham. However, the Palestinians&#8212;mostly Moslem&#8212;are of Abraham! So, who should possess the land? Shocking new discoveries that every Christian must know!

    [​IMG]


    ...
     
  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    why do Neo-Zionists think they can get sympathy for Israelis when they spew such hate speech and bigotry?

    - - - Updated - - -

    more hate speech from you.

    what's the deal?
     
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The bible does not a nation make. Anyone who believes that the reason for Israel to exist in the 21st century as an independent nation is because of the bible, then they are terrible students of history.

    OTOH, neither you nor any anti-zionist or jew hater can deny that much of the old testament is set in Israel. The places mentioned in the bible co-incidentally happen to be in the modern state of Israel. Imagine that.




    I happen to agree that religious dogma is nonsense. Since you acknowledge that the Christians and the Muslims also suffer from zealous belief in dogma, it appears you have a more pragmatic perspective.

    Well, I was just wondering if you are so pragmatic, why do you not accept the fact that Israel has seized the opportunity that was presented in 1948 and established, developed and frequently defended its existence? How much more does a nation have to accomplish before its detractors figure out that they have earned the right?
     
  22. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    oxymoron.

    What does the religious behaviour of secular jews have to do with the existence of Israel?

    As to daily whining about it being okay to take other people's land, big deal. Its done. It was done long before either of us was born. (well five years for me).

    Seems to me that the whining isn't coming from secular jews, its coming from neo-zionists and your grabbag collection of anti-zionists, jew haters, white power pinheads and muslim fanatics.



    So what you are stating is that because roughly 50% of the global jewish population does not live in Israel, that the jews don't have a deep and lasting link to the land of Israel. That is an absolutely absurd argument.

    Of course, people's origins have been diluted over a couple of millennia, especially given the history of a people like the jews. Your argument is the equivalent of claiming the sky is blue.
     
  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the funny thing about the Khazar theory, is that Ashkenazi Jews do not look like Kurds, Georgians, Armenians, or any of the other Caucuses peoples.
     
  24. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's the book itself. -

    http://www.rafapal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Shlomo-Sand-The-Invention-of-the-Jewish-People-2009.pdf

    here's some criticism
    Anita Shapira's Shlomo Sand book review.pdf


    http://www.jewlicious.com/2010/01/shlomo-sand-excoriated-for-shoddy-history-once-again/

    Reminds me of denialist experts.
     
  25. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    DUH - Of course Zionist Jews would do their utmost / employ their best shyster tactics to counter any critism or exposure of their lies.

    I've read Shlomo's book as well as Miko Peled's which I finished abt 3 mnths ago:

    [video=youtube;WNON9VRV-wE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNON9VRV-wE[/video]

    ...
     

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