There seems to be a need to clarify the record here. Although most resident truthers here prefer the line that no plane hit the Pentagon, and therefore Mineta's testimony is irrelevant, some here (Quantum) prefer the link that it was allowed to hit, and therefore Mineta's testimony to them is like 13 year old getting to see his first set of tits. And if we are to continue that metaphor, if Mineta's testimony were a pair of tits one would be perfect and the other would hang down to the knees; they just don't line up. Mineta's testimony was never included in the 9/11 Commission Report because it could not be corroborated with anything else. Although parts of his memory are correct, his time line is way off the mark. In effect, Mineta claims Cheney and him were in the PEOC at 0920 that morning, getting read outs from a military aide and Monte Belger (FAA) of an incoming target. Mineta assumes a shoot down order has already been given and as the numbers tick down an aide asks if the "orders" still stand. To which the answer is yes. Because AA77 ended up in the Pentagon at 0937, truthers then assert this was in fact a stand down order for some imaginary fighters which were no where near WDC anyway. Needless to say, there is no evidence for a stand down order at all. This being the introduction I will now present 2 further posts as to why Mineta has his time line off. I will also post details on why Mineta was in fact talking about UA93, not AA77. Finally, I will discuss the military response on 9/11, and show that no fighters were even in the area to carry out a shoot down, or a stand down. - - - Updated - - - First main points to bring up is Mineta's time line. The target for AA77 was not detected by anyone until 0924 by Dulles TRACON. This information was passed to the FAA, and then the Secrete Service a couple of minutes later, when it target was only 30 miles out as recorded in both the ATC audio tapes that day, as well as the secrete service logs. "0930 - FAA PO advices one of [2 missing aircraft] approach Washington DC - Not communicating with Tower" "0931 - FAA PO advices aircraft is 30 miles out from White House" It is impossible for Cheney, Mineta, and Belger to be talking about an aircraft 50 miles out when at the very earliest they could have known about it was 30 miles. Monte Belger, the FAA deputy administrator, who was providing information to Mineta that morning about the target inbound to DC, said he never even talked to Mineta until after the Pentagon was hit, around 0945. More of this next post. Mineta himself states he arrived at the White House after it had begun to evacuate. The White House did not evacuate until after the Pentagon was hit. Richard Clarke gave the order to evacuate the White House, and in the documentary "The Secrete History of 9/11", which features Richard Clarke heavily, this timeline is very well stated. This evacuation time is also recorded by CNN. Therefore it is impossible for Mineta to be in the PEOC for the approach of AA77. According to the Secrete Service log above Cheney did not start being evacuated to the PEOC until 0937. Other evidence suggests he did not arrive until 0945. According to Cheney's own statements, while in the tunnel heading for the PEOC, he stopped to watch the news on a tv, and took a call from President Bush on Air Force One. This time line can be easily confirmed, as Bush did not get Air Force One until between 0942 and 0945. This conversation took place in the tunnel before Cheney even got to the PEOC. Again, this means that neither Cheney, nor Mineta were in the PEOC for AA77's approach. Finally, Cheney does not have the authority to issue a shoot down order, or a stand down order. Only the President or Secretary of Defence has that authority. Bush did not relay an order to shoot down aircraft until closer to 10am. That order was then conveyed to the fighters out of Andrews AFB, who were under the control of the Secrete Service, not to NEADS.
Focusing more on the Belger-Mineta side of things, it is clear to see that from the information being relaid to Mineta, Belger was clearly referring to UA93, not AA77. AAL77.com has a xls document that contains the flight plans for United 93. The document shows that United 93's course was updated from Newark-San Francisco to Hagerstown-Reagan National at 10:08 a.m. Google Earth image with a straight line between DCA and HGR: Add to that, Mineta's 2002 MSNBC interview in which he stated that Monte Belger was trying to pinpoint the aircraft's location as it was tracked toward Washington. Here is Flight 93's TSD path with Belger's four reference points: It's obvious that Mineta was describing UA93 and not AA77. Boone made a youtube video with more details and air traffic control recordings if anyone's interested. [video=youtube;aKaEtq4EMoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKaEtq4EMoY[/video]
As for the military response, the only fighters under control of NEADS were 3 F-16's (QUIT 25/26/27) scrambled from Langley ANGB scrambled at 0924 in response to a report that AAL11 was still airborne and heading towards WDC. At this stage, they had no idea of AA77, they only knew there were 3 aircraft missing. They had no idea of a call sign. The Langley fighters were airborne at 0930. They took an incorrect hand off to the US Navy but at the end of the day that didn't change much so is fairly irrelevant. At 0934 NEADS got the first word that AA77 was "Lost", which they only found out by accident because one of them called the FAA to ask about AAL11. By this stage AA77 was beginning to circle the Pentagon. A minute later Colin Scoggins from Boston TMU overheard the FAA talking about a primary target 6 miles from the White House and called NEADS. NEADS found the target, and watch it fade a minute later towards the Pentagon. The fighters will still over 100 miles away. The only fighters close to the area were 2 F-16's from Andrews AFB. Andrews is not a NEADS stand by airbase, and therefore does not have any active armed fighters for duty. The only fighters who took off out of there were on a training mission, and were taken over under the orders of the Secrete Service. They were unarmed. You can hear the NEADS audio below with RADES data input; [video=youtube;OftgNhQKYus]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OftgNhQKYus[/video] Also the RADAR with the ATC audio from Dulles TRACON and Washington Tower; [video=youtube;lMWbHAqRHvI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMWbHAqRHvI[/video] In summary, no military aircraft were in the area in the time frame Mineta is referring to, and therefore there were no shoot down, or stand down orders, issue for AA77. Primary because NO ONE EVEN KNEW ABOUT IT.
Quantum on another thread linked sources by Grifter that alleged to show evidence (actually it was merely statements) that Mineta and Cheney were evacuated before 0920. Read more here.
Edit: I realise the link above in the Belger-Mineta section isn't working and it's too late to edit. Here is the flight plan data; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |135632.5|UAL93 117|FSP 06F |O ENR | IHD 06 AML EWR./.IHD323021 HGR | | | | | | UAL93 027 14 350 350 DCA 1527 | | | | | | 009 040 | | | | | | L/B752/E 1358 | | | | | | T473 G501 | | | | | | 06 DIA IA+ | | | | | | 117 01 HGR |NRP WNA DC+ | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And here is the document Boone is referring to; We also know that in fact it was a shoot down order, after the crash of AA77, and it was for UA93 due to warning to other pilots from ATC; [video=youtube;1RtrcI6AHtk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtrcI6AHtk[/video]
Evening all. Another very recent piece to this puzzle. As a result of recent FOIA requests the national archives released a pile of photos taken in the white house on the morning of September 11. Oystein over on JREF bought to light 3 photos of interest. "New photos - many, if not all, probably taken by Cheney's White House photographer David Bohrer, have just been released to the public: https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/sets/72157656213196901 Discussion about at 911Blogger. Truther "Shoestring" found a couple of interesting pictures: Cheney in his White House office at 9:31, watching Bush speaking in Sarasota Cheney in his office at 9:33, watching ABC news Still watching TV at 9:36 (A comparison with video from archive - made by our dear MirageMemories) So now we know that Cheney couldn't have arrived at the WH bunker (the PEOC - or rather the tunnel outside of the PEOC initially) until after AA77 crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37 (perhaps they took off at 9:37, or even still 9:36, but it should take a couple of minutes to go down there). It is known that Cheney talked to Bush, who had just left the Emma Booker Elementary School after his short speech there at 9:30, while in the tunnel before entering the PEOC proper. The 9/11 Commission put the latter at 9:58. According to all accounts, even those that are otherwise incorrect about time stamps, Mineta arrived at the PEOC after Cheney and Cheney's wife (logged in at 9:52) - most likely after 10:00. UA93 crashed at 10:03." Yet another fact of the day that shows Mineta's testimony was the result of remembering the correct events at the wrong time.
Your whole argument is based on an incorrect assumption. There's a ton of proof that a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon that you're ignoring. http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=405804&p=1064937346#post1064937346
No,there isn't any 'proof',since plane parts,luggage,and passenger remains were found inside,as well as the 'black boxes'. Ultra-fail
I don't know how many times I've addressed this same issue. All of that stuff was plantable.... http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=9632&st=0&start=0 ...and it doesn't make the other proof go away.
No,it was NOT 'plantable,to claim such is a sad ,pathetic ploy by a truther,desperate to cling to his discredited theories.
Saying something is plantable does not prove it was planted. You have to provide evidence that it WAS planted and you have never done so. Every time you address it you fail and fail miserably. There is no other evidence to make go away. The evidence all proves you wrong and a link to an earlier post is meaningless.
and thats where the bear takes a crapola in the buckwheat. Nothing that has been shown for evidence needed anything larger than a pickup truck or trailer to haul to the sites.
This is hardly worth a reply but I'll reply anyway. If it was plantable, it can't be used as proof that a 757 hit the Pentagon. You people keep putting those small pieces of wreckage forth as proof that a 757 hit the Pentagon. You're trying to sway the new viewers who haven't done any reasearch.
ALL of the parts weren't 'small',scott/cosmore/fatfreddy88/david c Your truther myopia makes you say that.
Yes it is proof which you cannot refute. Anything is plantable therefore being plantable is not a valid argument. The burden is on you to prove it WAS planted. Could have been is irrelevant to anyone with any sense of logic or rational thought. No one is trying to away anyone. A person such as you with religious faith at odds with all evidence cannot be swayed. What is being done is proving that no evidence supports any claim you make and all evidence proves you wrong. Which you will ignore even though if is fact.
I know its unlike PF to remain on topic for more than 2 pages at a time (the single reason I no longer really participate here), but can we at least try to keep this on topic admins?
I guess maybe I should help them by posting a real plane crash wreckage pile. 15 ft high pile the size of a baseball diamond.
Apples and oranges. Sorry to burst your bubble but no two plane crashes are alike. In addition by applying YOUR standards those images you posted are not evidence of ANY plane crash. According to YOUR standards no plane has ever crashed because no evidence exists of any such crash
