always said once they develop a substitute for platinum solar and wind would finally be a viable source for power. http://phys.org/news/2013-12-catalyst-fuel-cells-potential-substitute.html if this pans out this will mean the beginning of the end for carbon based fuel. Theoretically you could have a solar powered hydrogen generator at your home. No sun would be no problem, just use the stored hydrogen. Or it could just use natural gas f to get the hydrogen . Any way it goes it will beat coal/oil power. Nuke plants are another good source for power for electrolysis
Electrolysis is extremely wasteful. People vastly underestimate just how much land area you need for solar panels to equal energy demand much less future demand.
technology has came a long way since the days of the old 7L16 O2 generators, which USN submariners fondly called the bombs. Treadwell now has these jewels http://www.treadwellcorp.com/proton-exchange-membrane-hydrogen-generator.php. But there is a whole slew of methods to split water. here is one of the latest http://phys.org/news/2013-12-hydrogen-oxygen-nanoparticles.html The main issue holding back fuel cell tech has been the cost of the platinum for the catalyst along with making the system leak proof. If the catalyst issue has been resolved then then everything else will fall into place over the course of a few years. I would not be at all surprised to see hydrogen fueling stations in my lifetime
I have to disagree that it is the main hold up. The two fold inefficiency of water to hydrogen to mechanical energy is also a big drawback.
might surprise you to know that hydrogen production is already a 100 million dollar a year industry in the USA. NREL and private enterprise is already doing a lot of R&D on hydrogen http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/proj_production_delivery.html http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/production.html not saying it is going to bankrupt the fossil fuel industry next week but I really believe that in 50 years a gasoline powered car will be about as common as horse drawn carriages are today
The beauty of a free market system is that if you build a better and cheaper mousetrap it will sell. I am quite sure the liverymen and carriage makers fought tooth and nail against the horseless carriage. Same with radio and the movie industry with television. Personal computers were once just toys for geek hobbyists. It will be quite a while before it is cost effective to have your own solar or wind powered hydrogen generator which is why I titled this thread "is this the beginning of the end" However just about every one considered the catalyst issue the biggest hurdle to overcome in regards to fuel cells. Leakage is an issue also but the tech to cure that has been around for 50 or 60 years. Only main obstacle I see now is the detonability and auto ignition factors which would affect safety. Since several automakers plan to have hydrogen powered cars in operation in the near future I would assume they have developed effective containment procedures and devices in case of a accident However I do see your point, trying to get a natural gas conversion kit for a production automobile is almost impossible due to the government red tape involved. The lobbying interests hold our politicians in the palms of their hands.
Oh c'mon ! Our energy distribution system works against the free market. If you are a small electricity producer, how are you going to sell your product to the power transmission areas? Likewise liquid or gaseous fuels. The current system is not a Free Market system. Our energy industries are a price fixed for profits, market. Not like the "Gas Wars" I remember from the fifties. BTW there is this "professor" type who for 10K crated his house's energy system for electrolysis of water to gain hydrogen via solar. The hydrogen is stored and run through fuel cells for electricity. Based on "solar" he is not hampered by theoretical inefficiencies and the system works. Meanwhile here in Southern California we have acres and acres of suburban sprawl into the desert areas and all the roofs are naked. Whose interest does that serve? Central Energy Distribution, Inc. Moi No
Ah, that good ol' time 50s communism! What nostalgia you stir up. Moi, in most states that I know, individuals or small businesses that generate electricity by whatever means have the right to connect to the grid - the nationwide network of electricity transmission cables - and to be compensated for the power that they contribute."Central Energy Distribution, Inc." must send them a monthly check. You may also know that the law was revised several years ago to separate electricity generation from electricity transmission. You can have only one transmission company - the one that provides your cables - but you can buy electricity from many generation companies in your state or even in other states. Many people cut their bills by shopping for the cheapest electric generator, since all electricity is alike. That's why generators of all sizes, including individuals, can connect to the grid and be paid. Your commie critique of evil monopolists is out of date. Said with friendship and respect.
Pay the wheeling fees like everyone else and charge the market price for your power. The problem with the small producers is that they always have greater cost per MWh and think that they should be paid their cost + profit and not the going rate per MWh.
there have already been situations where self sufficient power producers sell excess power to energy corporations...it's no different than selling oil to exxon... I came across something last week regarding energy storage from solar and wind sources, converting the excess energy into hydrogen and storing it in existing natural gas pipeline grid until needed, energy companies like the idea and are investing in it to explore it's viability...I can't tell you much more I didn't have much time to look into it at the time... the candian government also has a test facility using the same principle, a small community has solar and wind sources to supply energy and the excess is converted into hydrogen and stored until it's needed on overcast windless days...
I do not believe laws have been sufficiently altered to allow small producers an equal chance to sell their product. Sure for the lone homeowner and his meter running in reverse but, I just don't believe someone who really has a small business going generating "power" can access the transmission of his energy. Our energy systems have kept us on a central distribution system and has not exploited the potential of smaller, peripheral producers. Why? Big business profits. If bobov drove a car, he would understand more better. Moi No
I'm not interested in finding it but I know there self sufficient energy producers who have sold their surplus to energy corporations...and why wouldn't a supplier want it? If had a large solar or wind power source for my home and had a surplus why not sell the energy to the corporation to whose grid I'm already connected to? they gain energy they didn't produce and sell it on to someone else, it's a win win situation for both of us...
well if you are interested in launching one here is how http://smallbusiness.chron.com/start-windmill-business-15212.html TBoone Pickens wasn't very successful with that though Full article and video that being said converting excess power to hydrogen was exactly one of the points I tried to make in the OP. Biggest issue with sun and wind is indeterminacy. There are a heck of a lot of ways to make hydrogen but there has not been a cost effective way to use it in a fuel cell. If this pans out then we will finally have a cost effective fuel cell. I can totally envision small hydrogen production plants popping up to meet the demand. Electrolysis is the only method I am familiar with and while that may or may not be efficient with and you would have to know the capital cost of the electrolyzer and improving energy efficiency. If demand was high then it might or might not. There are always the other half dozen ways to produce.
and why wouldn't a supplier want it? Because suppliers are "one" with the distributor. Think monopoly. It profits a distributor more to dispense his own product than a product from an independent. Moi No
the term self energy sufficient made me laugh. Even in Miami Florida the usable sunshine for solar power varies from lows of around 3.5 hours a day to around 6 in the peak months. Take a hell of a lot of lead acid batteries to keep your refrigerator running for the other 15 - 20 hours a day and a solar array with 700% capacity to charge the batteries, any extra you could sell to the power company though
Have you ever watched one of the pawn shows on TV? Have you seen the people that come into pawn something and they try and dictate the price to the store owner based on what they paid for it or what they need? I'll give you $50 bucks for it. But I paid $300. Its worth $50 bucks. Come on man I got bills to pay. I'll give you $50 bucks. You dont understand I need $400. You don't understand it cant even sell it for $400. That is the problem with the secondary generation market. They think that because it cost them $X/MWh to produce that they are entitled to ($X+Y)/MWh when they sell it. No the most you should get is the avoided cost unfortunately many governments have mandated prices above the avoided cost which jacks up the price on consumers.
Even if solar panels were free, it would help very little with carbon fuels. You still need to overhaul entire transportation infrastructure to convert it to hydrogen or electricity. Thats a much bigger issue than merely green electricity sources. A car wont run on solar panels.
