Originally I had written this for readers of the Turkish defence forum when they had asked for my viewpoint as to why Pakistanis and Indians have a problem with each other . Being an Indian this is written from an Indian point of view . the reason for the hate goes back to the era before partition . you see , the muslim elites of undivided india used to consider themselves as a ' master race ' who had ruled over the hindus for 6-7 centuries . remember , the mass of the common muslims didnt have this ' master race ' mentality--for they were always poorer than the common hindus , and had been converted from the lower castes of hindus anyway . but the elites had this mentality , especially those who traced their roots to foreign lands like central asia , iran and afghanistan. now with the coming of the british rule , they ,for the first time , realised that they were a minority among the hindus...... all the mass rapes , massacres , destruction of hindu temples , forcible conversions had failed to convert the majority of hindus to islam !! now they , long used to ruling the roost , found that they had to economically compete with the hindus for jobs--and soon found themselves outclassed in that department by the hindus !! this led them to an acute insecurity about their position in india . when it became clear that the british were going to leave india , they ( the master race ) realised that the hated infidels ( hindus )were now going to rule the country...... the kaafir was going to rule the muslims !! this led them on an acute trip of paranoia...... jinnah , a politician who had hoped to lead the whole of india , but found his position upsurped by mahatma gandhi , now found the chance to revive his flagging career by raising the bogey of--islam khatray mey ( islam in danger )--so that he would get the grand historical role he envisioned for himself by becoming founder of pakistan . the tool he used was the muslim league party , which was composed largely of the muslim elite. the muslim league then convinced the mass of illiterate common muslims that the hindus were making a grand conspiracy of subjugating the muslims , and a seperate nation must be founded to protect their interests . thus pakistan was born after the muslims began to riot all over india , the indian national congress realised that it was hopeless to try to keep the state united . now things should have stopped at that-- but the muslim league wanted the new state ( pakistan ) to live upto its name and become PAK , that means pure . and pure it was to be made by massacring those hindus and sikhs who lived in pakistan . once those massacres started , the hindus and sikhs in india retaliated , and rivers of blood flowed on both sides . ultimately , west pakistan was ethnically cleansed of all hindus and sikhs ( except a few ) , and a similar ethnic cleansing occured in indian states of punjab , haryana , himachal , and upto some extent in bihar . all this bred HATE on both sides . Turkish readers will be reminded of the story of the exchange of populations between greece and turkey--greek muslims going to turkey , and turkish christains going to greece after bloody massacres on both sides . the difference here is that unlike greece , which had tried to grab anatolia by waging war on the turks , and planning to annihilate them , india had made no such war . now remained the question of some states ruled by ancient dynasties , who had accepted british suzerainty , but had been allowed to rule their own kingdoms within british india . of these hyderabad and junagadh were hindu majority states with muslim rulers . the ruler junagadh tried to join pakistan ( inspite of the hindu majority ), and the pakistani state helped him in this . the ruler of hyderabad declared himself independent and started killing the hindus with arms given by pakistan . but this cruel and cunning gameplan by pakistan was nullified by india's superior military power . the indian army simply marched into these territories and joined them to india . what the pakistanis didn't know was that india was going to pay them back in the same coin . kashmir was a state with a muslim majority , but having a hindu ruler . he was thinking of becoming independent ,while pakistan was planning to grab it . but jawaharlal nehru , india's prime minister was a kashmiri hindu , and didn't want his region to go to pakistan . when the pakistanis launched their invasion of kashmir , the hindu ruler asked nehru for help . nehru asked him to sign the instrument of accsesion to india . this got some legitimacy because sheikh abdullah , the leader of the kashmiri muslims , who had been waging a long battle against its hindu ruler , supported the accession . indian troops were airlifted into kashmir , and the pakistani invasion was halted with the area under pakistani control going to pakistan . now pakistan wants the whole of kashmir under the guise of muslim majority , forgetting that it too had played the same game in respect to junagadh and hyderabad that india did in kashmir . its another matter that india's superior military power prevailed . actually pakistan uses the ' hate-india ' card to keep its varied peoples united . hate for india , is indeed the only reason why all pakistanis can come together--otherwise pakistan would be split apart . so pakistani politicians keep the hate alive to unite pakistani people. another reason for keeping the hate for india alive is the fact that this allows the pakistani army to justify the mammoth expenditures on itself--using a huge part of the national budget . this money is used to fuel the hi-fi and expensive lifestyles of the pakistani generals . they fear that if the hate india card falls ,then common pakistanis will demand a reduction in military budget . if that happens , where will the money to fund their lavish lifestyles come from ?? so hate for india has to be kept alive...... kashmir is the excuse , mind you , the excuse to hate india--not the reason . if kashmir goes to pakistan ,then pakistans will doubtlessly find other excuses to hate india , and keep their country from falling apart .
Both of the countries are spending more than half of their budget on military. Military establishments are very strong on both sides. India is a large country and spending too much on its military, far more than Pakistan. India is paying a big price to keep Kashmir on their side. Education, health and social development should be the prime focus of both countries. Both of the countries are facing poverty, illiteracy and social problems which need to address.
as a percentage of GDP , the money india spends on defense is considerably less than what pakistan spends on defense as a percentage of it's GDP . india is a bigger country with a economy that is growing at nearly 5 percent per year and can afford to spend whatever it spends on defense . pakistan on the other hand has an economy that is in recession and cannot afford to spend money on defense .
India spends about 2.5 percent of it's GDP on defense per year , while Pakistan spends about 6.5 percent of it's GDP on defense per year . One more thing I have to say---you say that military establishments are strong on both sides , but you forget that there is a crucial difference . India has a military that is completely controlled by the democratically elected civilian government , while pakistan's military has been involved in toppling the democratically elected civilian governments on several occasions and is known to control the foreign policy of the pakistani nation even when there is democratic government in place . the pakistani military forcibly demands its share of money in the budget and the lifestyles and amenities provided to the pakistani military personnel are a class above the rest of the population . in india however , the military has no special standing in society and cannot influence the decision as to how much money it is to be allotted for spending .
My only point was that both countries spending a lot on their defense. There are issues of poverty, education , disease and violence on both sides. Together they can address those issues.
In my opinion, the Pakistan army has a deep-rooted thirst for revenge on account of the Indian Army's role in forming Bangladesh. Pakistan Army has given a long leash to non-state actors to carry out a proxy war against India and the northern states of Punjab and Jammu and Kashmir are bearing he brunt of thsi strategy. However, the Indian security agencies are seized of the situation now and have taken steps to nullify the threat. Pakistan based elements like the LeT just won't stop: LeT cadres trying to infiltrate through Bathinda: Agencies
My Indian friend, you are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how stupid, ignorant or ill-founded it may be (e.g, the OP), but not to your own facts ... Pakistan's military expenditure has been stable at 3.5% of GDP for the last ten years ... Data from World Bank: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS
the data from the world bank does not include the vast amount of money required to train jehadis that the pakistani state harbours and are regularly sent to spew terror in india , afghanistan , xingiang in china etc .
That's an absurd claim. It's just like saying that India spends 10% of its GDP to create trouble and unrest in its neighboring countries (Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, China etc.). When you make claims that cannot be backed up by any evidence/proof/authentic source, You can say/claim anything .... India does finance trouble in Pakistan, and even the Americans know this: [video]https://youtu.be/PNeKnMbAm8c[/video] India financed problems for Pakistan' from Afghanistan: Chuck Hagel
the trouble that india can finance in pakistan is nothing compared to the terror pakistan spews across the globe . for example , osama bin laden the world's dealiest terrorist was found hiding in pakistan .
So you mean to say that India is justified in financing terrorism/trouble in Pakistan !! The only thing you regret is that India is unable to do that on a larger scale... And then you ask: "Why Pakistanis have a problem with India" !!?? Well, Osama bin Laden was originally recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war, ironically under the auspices of the American CIA, to fight Soviet invaders. But how is that related to the topic ?. You guys have been trying your best to annihilate Pakistan since 1947, OBL wasn't even born at that time. Don't try to tell us that you hate Pakistan because of Terrorism ... Terrorism and WoT are recent phenomena. And Pakistan itself is the biggest victim of (Indian sponsored) terrorism. Who are you trying to fool ?
i never said anything about regretting anything . dont put words in my mouth . what i am saying is that india does not put much money in trouble spewing in pakistan or anywhere . on the other hand pakistan has an extremely vast machinery of terror and huge jehadi camps for attacking the globe . you people dont even spare the hand that feeds you . you were hiding osama even after he was held responsible by america for 9/11 . also pakistani based terrorists are active in xingiang in china . so both america and china who are your supposed friends are suffering from terror based in pakistan . and we certainly dont want to annihilate pakistan . if pakistan is annihilated then it will be incorporated in india---which means a huge horde of crazies will become part of my country . do we want that ?? do we ?? naah.....let pakistan remain free and independent . all that we want is that the jehad network of pakistan should be dismantled . remember that those jehadis are creating trouble in pakistan itself---like murdering shias . so dismantling is for your own good .
Much or not much, But India does put money in trouble spewing and terrorism fanning in Pakistan.. Some Pakistan based non-state actors are responsible for carrying out terrorist attacks in Pakistan (and in some other countries), and we have been fighting them for the last 10-15 years. About 80 thousand Pakistanis have lost their lives so far ... And you guys are financing and supporting those terrorists !! ... Do you realize that it makes you active state sponsor of terrorism ?? Not surprising though. Indian Army has killed 100,000 innocent Kashmiris in Indian Occupied Kashmir since 1990. You should be the last one to complain about terrorism. Yes, You want to annihilate Pakistan. But You can't do that.... Incorporated into India ? Seriously ? You guys are delusional. Why would anyone want to become a part of the world's largest slum (with right-wing Hindu terror on the rise), i.e., India aka the Rape Capital of the World ?
most of the non state actors in pakistan have backing of pakistani government . only because it does not want itself declared terrorist state does pakistan does not openly state that it backs them . a country which declares ahmadis as non muslim and had a party that wants shias to be declared as non muslim does not need india to spew terror in it . the so called 'true' muslims themselves plot to kill ahmadis shias and anyone who is liberal and against barbaric laws like blasphemy law . are you saying that pakistan is not a slum ? even the books written in recent times which describe pakistan have names like ' a hard country ' ( written by anatol lieven ) and 'the warrior state ' ( written by t v paul ) . you earlier asked what was the need to bring osama into this . the hiding of osama is proof of your complicity in global terror . osama was not hiding with help of non state actors but with help of the government and military . read both books i mentioned . both say that the paranoia that india will annihilate pakistan has led to your country being so obsessed with security that it has utterly neglected the well being of it's citizens and wasted all its energy on security related issues . your country murdered 3 million innocent bangladeshis and you talk of 100000 kashmiris ? utterly laughable . those who live in glass houses should not throw stones on others....
Not true Yes, there are a few lunatics here who want to kill others just for their beliefs, they are the terrorists, and you guys are financing and supporting those terrorists in order to destabilize Pakistan. We maybe A hard country or a warrior state, but we aren't a slum (unlike India) Not true Firstly, those numbers are greatly exaggerated and there is no objective evidence whatsoever to back up those figures. For details, read Dead Reckoning by Sarmila Bose (an Indian herself) Secondly, Are You saying that India is justified in killing innocent Kashmiris as other states have also killed innocent people in the past ?? What a lame logic!
I can also refute your allegations by saying 'not true'. What is the big deal . Even the weapons like Kalashnikov rifles that are used are locally made by expert Pakistani armourers . Such is the expertise you have achieved in fomenting terrorism on yourself and others. Also a country that unleashed Taliban on Afghanistan and mujahadin on india making allegations of Indian financing of terrorism is making a mockery of itself. And exaggerated or not, you cannot point fingers at us considering your terrible record in Bangladesh. This happened because Pakistanis are absolutely racist and hated the shorter and darker Bangladeshis. Not only Pakistan is a slum , your people live in a morass of poverty and superstition where polio vaccination is also considered a crime .
not only pakistan is a slum , but the reasons for poverty in pakistan are clear . muslims want to dominate the whole world by force of their population and hence produce vast hordes of children . the mullahs who are blinded by hate for other religions encourage muslims to breed to outnumber people of other religions . now the number of children each pakistani couple has is so much that each child gets hardly any money or property of their parents as all the money and property gets divided into too many shares . so many pakistani children are reduced to begging on the streets and living in the gutter . anatol lieven has speculated in ' a hard country' as to what would happen in the future of pakistan . the vast number of children that pakistanis cant afford to educate but still are produced in vast numbers will one day produce a water crisis in pakistan . the indus and its tributaries will run out of water for pakistanis to drink as there will be too many pakistanis in future ( due to vast breeding of muslims ) and pakistanis will start killing each other for water.... not only pakistan just escapes being designated a terrorist state but it is also pushing drugs into punjab state of india . the idea is the destroy the martial qualities of the punjabis , so that they will not be able fight a future pakistani invasion . this is in line with pakistani plans to invade and destroy india . pakistani visa is the worst to travel with according to this report by pakistani newspaper express tribune --- http://tribune.com.pk/story/704044/...-worst-to-travel-with-visa-restriction-index/ the reason for this not far to seek . pakistanis are instantly suspected to be terrorists worldwide and hence no one wants a visitor with a pakistani visa in their country .
Its because they are Muslims and Muslims can't stand anyone that isn't also Muslim. They can't even stand each other......their (*)(*)(*)(*)ing Muslims.
You are the one making baseless allegations, my dear (Parsi?) friend.. You have no evidence/proof to back up your claims. So let me repeat myself, My Indian friend, you are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how stupid, ignorant or ill-founded it may be, but not to your own facts If gun manufacturing/owning is your "measurement criteria", What would you say about the Americans ? There are more guns than people in the United States ... Pakistan ranks 55th in the world in private gun ownership (11.6 firearms per 100 people).... Try again And India is the world’s largest weapons importer (Source)!! You guys love guns/weapons, don't you ? you just lack the industry expertise, and you don't know how to make them. Unleashed Mujahideen on India ? And when did that happen ? And if you are talking about Kashmir, then you should know that Kashmir is not India. Kashmir is an internationally recognized disputed territory, and the Kashmir insurgency is in fact legitimate (for details, read ICJ mission report, published in 1995) Indians were equally(if not more) responsible for all those tragic deaths. Who created and trained Mukti Bahini ? Even Your PM, on his recent visit to Bangladesh, openly and shamelessly admitted that Indian forces helped Mukti Bahini to turn East Pakistan into Bangladesh (Source) Anyway, that happened about half a century ago. That was a tragedy that should never have happened. What you need to understand is: "Two wrongs don't make a right" .. Pakistanis are absolutely racist ? No they are not. But you sure are a narrow-minded bigot who has just declared that 20 million Pakistanis are all racists ... Mate, accept the truth ... India is the world's largest slum, Pakistan isn't. Live with it
yes , americans own lot of guns . but in pakistan the first toy that is given to a child is a real gun , not toy gun . pakistani children are taught to play with guns since childhood and all guns are AK 47 . a future terrorist is being born !! and since pakistanis have no economic future , the only 'job' ( if it can be called so ) that a child can hope for on becoming older is to become a gun welding jehadi murdering innocent people . india is the world's largest importer of arms because along with pakistan china also threatens it and india has to deal with the much bigger threat of china . but common people dont own kalashnikovs like in pakistan , at least not on a large scale . thats because people are not so violent and dont want a gun culture . india has its own rifle manufacturing industry , but those weapons are strictly for armed forces or paramilitary personnel . we dont want to convert our kids into jehadis like you pakistanis do . you terrorists have attacked mumbai in 2008 . one of them ( ajmal kasab ) was caught alive . so you cant say that your terrorists dont attack india even if kashmir is considered disputed . we helped bangladeshis get their legitimate right for independence . there is nothing to be shameful about that . but your pakistani soldiers should be shameful of murdering bangladeshis and raping their women . you pakistanis are racists and have contempt for the shorter and darker bangladeshis , and hence never treated them fairly---which is why they demanded independence . pakistan is not the world's largest slum because it is not big enough . we indians sure did a good job of cutting it down to size by defeating pakistan in 1971 and creating bangladesh by conquering east pakistan . formerly when east and west pakistan were combined it was a super massive slum . i now challenge you to take revenge for 1971 by conquering kashmir . this will keep your country forever in a war like state and incapable of doing anything for the well being of its citizens . india on the other hand is much bigger and can absorb the costs of being ready for war---something that pakistanis cant . maybe those children with kalashnikovs will be also required for attacking india . having no hope of getting a proper education but having to go to a madrasa ( religious seminary ) where they breed terrorists , those children will be ever ready to sacrifice their childhood for a hopeless cause .
All froth and folly, no substance or seriousness !! Almost half of illiterate adults in the world live in India (40% of global total). But when even the supposedly educated ones are like you, all I can say is "God help India" Why are you filled with so much hate ? Every country has their fair share of lunatics and (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)bags, Pakistan (and India too) is no exception. But you are trying to brand an entire nation of 200 million as 'terrorists' just because of actions of a few, what does it make you? ... And It's just like saying that all Indians(including you) are rapists. How does that feel now ? Well, Data tabulated from the World Values Survey revealed that Pakistan was actually one of the least racist countries in the world. It further revealed that India and Jordan were, by far, the least tolerant countries in the world(Source). Pakistanis are much more tolerant and less racist compared to the Indians. And here you are trying to tell us that Pakistanis are racists ? See what blind hatred does to you ? Ok, fair enough. But then why do you go crying to the World community when we (morally and diplomatically) support the "legitimate" right of Kashmiris? And when this legitimacy (unlike East Pakistan) is accepted by the UN and ICJ (International Commission of jurists). Double standards ?? As for murder and rape, the Indian Army tops the list: Most regional sources indicate that more than 93,000 Kashmiris have already sacrificed their lives in pursuit of freedom from Indian rule. Over 102,000 houses and shops have been either burnt or looted. More than 100,000 children have been orphaned and roughly 10,350 women have so far been molested. It is indeed difficult to calculate that how many Kashmiris are missing or hiding but rough estimates put the figure to over 100,000. These figures by themselves paint a horrible picture in Kashmir. You Pakistans are racists, You Pakistanis are terrorists
the data tabulated by world values survey is long after the genocide in east pakistan , which is now bangladesh . if east pakistan had remained in pakistan even today then the racism by taller fair skinned west pakistanis towards darker and shorter east pakistanis would made pakistan tagged as a racist country . the terror tag does not escape a pakistani whenever he or she goes out of pakistan . the pakistani visa is one of the worst visas to own because every pakistani is instantly suspected to be a terrorist in foreign country . so the world recognizes pakistan as a terror capital of the world . i have no choice but to return the hate spewed by pakistanis upon us indians . personally if pakistanis stop hating us and sending terrorists into india we will go back to our lives and stop even thinking about pakistan . we will even stop being the world's largest arms importer and cut down on military spending to a large extent . as far as kashmir is concerned , read my original post in this thread . you pakistanis themselves tried to grab junagadh and hyderabad even though both were hindu majority states . so don't complain about kashmir where we paid you back in your own coin .
That’s just like, your opinion, man. World Values Survey (WVS) is a global research project that has been measuring global attitudes and opinions for decades. A report published by WVS (2013) based on data collected over many years revealed that Pakistan was one of the least racist countries in the world, and that Pakistanis were 4-7 times less racist than Indians. http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs.jsp Pakistanis say that they have no choice but to return the hate spewed by Indians upon them. And that if India stops state terrorism in Kashmir (and terrorism fanning in Pakistan), we will go back to our lives and stop even thinking about India .. Indians hate Pakistanis because Pakistanis hate them (and send terrorists to India), and Pakistanis hate Indians because the Indians hate them(and support/finance terrorism in Pakistan) !! Indians cannot stop hating Pakistanis and supporting terrorism in Pakistan until and unless Pakistanis stop hating Indians and sending terrorists to India. And Pakistanis cannot stop hating Indians and sending terrorists to India until and unless Indians stop hating Pakistan and supporting terrorism in Pakistan... We are stuck in a catch-22 like situation.... There's no hope Until there are "enough" people on both sides of the border who are able to see beyond the shadows of their society(/culture/religion) and the lies of their governments ... The ruler of Junagadh acceded his state to Pakistan. India invaded and captured it forcefully on the pretext that it was a Hindu Majority state The ruler of Hyderabad wanted to remain independent. India invaded and captured Hyderabad on the pretext that it was a Hindu majority state. (Pakistan tried to "grab" Hyderabad ?? have you ever tried to read history ? obviously not) Whereas Kashmir was a Muslim majority state, but India invaded and captured Kashmir on the pretext that the ruler of the state (a Hindu) wanted to accede his state to Pakistan. Double standards ? Hypocrisy ?
The ruler of Junagadh acceded his state to Pakistan. India invaded and captured it forcefully on the pretext that it was a Hindu Majority state The ruler of Hyderabad wanted to remain independent. India invaded and captured Hyderabad on the pretext that it was a Hindu majority state. (Pakistan tried to "grab" Hyderabad ?? have you ever tried to read history ? obviously not) Whereas Kashmir was a Muslim majority state, but India invaded and captured Kashmir on the pretext that the ruler of the state (a Hindu) wanted to accede his state to India. Double standards ? Hypocrisy ?
