New replacement for labour in the Uk?

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by armlesscorps, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. armlesscorps

    armlesscorps New Member

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    The left in Britain has been failing miserably for decades. Managing to provide such a bleak option for the working class that even Thatcher could get into power, and offering no discernable alternative to the conservatives so that voter turnout is at all time lows.
    Late last year a new party was formed, and has gained significant media coverage and also a fairly fast growing membership. It is true left, believing the people that work for an organisation should make decisions for and own that organisation, believing that austerity must come to an end in the UK.
    I have no affiliations with this organisation but thought it should come to the attention of people here, and maybe you could offer up some opinions on their policies, which are stated briefly here

    http://leftunity.org/about/

    I am strongly thinking about voting for them, but their views seem to be nascent to say the least.
    At the very least, by gaining significant support, they could stir up Labour and the electorate. They have been called the Ukip of the left.
     
  2. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    I had a brief look.

    I do agree with some of their economic policies but most of ones stated don't seem feasible I also disagree with their immigration policy and their stance on the EU.

    But it is encouraging that more people are taking an interest in politics and forming new parties
     
  3. munter

    munter New Member

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    I've come across some of these people in real life, and they are semi-aligned with the SPEW (Socialist Party England and Wales) - pretty sure they started out as a nearly communist organisation.

    Anyway, not so sure about the unchecked 'mass immigration is good' card, because, aside from the idealism, this just plays into the hands of the bosses, IMO

    But still, good to see something new with the word 'Socialist, Alternative' removed - because that name has a serious image problem.

    I am hoping some of my SPEW friends in the UK will take note of that:wink:
     
  4. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    In statement one 3 is incompatible with 7

    I agree with their ideas but i do not agree with their end game , when you say that you are a socialist the means of production should belong to those who work them not any kind of "majority". I am skeptical .
     
  5. munter

    munter New Member

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    What were statements 1 and 3,7? and what is this 'majority' you speak of?
     
  6. smevins

    smevins New Member

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    If I were in the UK, I would vote for Labour most likely. The global economy went through a major contraction after a global expansion. The UK will be better off for austerity and the like down the road. Nobody likes it, but that is just the cards that have been dealt. Fiscal responsibility should be a part of the equation (something the democratic party in the US has no problem throwing to the wind as if there is never a day of reckoning). If the government is not squared a way, they will be unable to foster an environment conducive to job creation.
     
  7. munter

    munter New Member

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    I thought you were a die hard right winger- so surely the Conservatives or UKIP would be more to your liking?
     
  8. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you (and it) failed when you called it "the left" and this new party seems destined to fail on the same basis. It’s all about political concepts and principles being the basis for policy rather than an honest assessment of what is happening and what works. Like so many other parties, especially on the extremes, they focus on issues from one-sided and blinkered view-points and so propose overly simplistic and flawed policies that don't take account of the complex realities of the world.

    There is a reason that centralist and moderate parties tend to remain in power while parties like this one remain on the sidelines. People might respond instinctively to the rhetoric and bluster but when it comes down to making real world decisions, most recognise that simply won't work.
     
  9. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Labour policies are about spending more money on things like welfare and the NHS etc. And their track record for fiscal responsibility is less than great and the Blair government actually increased the national debt.

    Right now the budget is at it's maximum and there's no way that Labour can actually do what they want without making serious cuts.
     
  10. munter

    munter New Member

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    Most of these leftist parties are too wishy-washy, it's gay rights, feminist, muslim rights, mass immigration etc.. all feeble and spineless

    How about some rights for local white people for a change
     
  11. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    Please could you give me one good reason why the unlimited possibility of immigration from Eastern Europe is a positive thing? It has been shown time and time again that this migration to the UK has been detrimental to country and especially it's national services. With unemployment at an all time high, why should we be letting more people in to steal more jobs and take from our services, before they have put a single penny in.

    If you're going to seriously going to vote labour take into consideration this. Gordon Brown. I don't think I really need to say any more then that, but I will. He claims that he is a financial and banking genius. What kind of genius announces when and how much gold you are going to sell especially when it was at a 20 year low. If you want people like that running your country, people that make the most basic of economic failures on a scale like that. Then vote labour. If you vote labour immigration from Eastern European countries will not be stopped or controlled and the unemployment rate in the UK will continue rise.

    The truth is unless immigration to this country is controlled properly there will not be an environment conducive to employment or job creation, there simply is too many people in the UK now.

    Actually if you are listen to what Mr. Farage says he plans to stop mass migration, and put the interests of the white working class first. Now before I get jumped on for that comment being racist, it actually isn't it's a fair comment. The British working class in the UK, the people that have been here the longest regardless of skin colour or race, and have paid the most in taxes are losing all those minimum wage jobs to foreigners. By controlling immigration into this country we will inevitably open up more job opportunities for everyone in the UK.

    The main issues in this thread seem to be about immigration and budgets. Being part of the EU costs us approximately £19-£20 billion a year, that's around £50 million a day. Anyone that has some common sense can see how much that will help our country get back on it's feet and how it can help to restore our national services and help repay our huge debt.
     
  12. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    The only thing it's actually good for is for the employers profit margin.
    True. Slightly different story with more specialised skills like doctors for example but apparently there are cases of newly qualified doctors that are unable to find work.
    I agree. In fact the comment I made was in reference to the Leftunity website which states that it is against restriction on migration.
    This is something I cannot agree with and if it were up to me I would say that we should leave the EU or at the very least implement laws which grant the native UK worker privilege over the migrant.
     
  13. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    I thank you for your input. I'm sorry that I missed that part about the Lefties.

    I'm glad that there are people in the UK that realise what is happening. It give me great pride and hope for this country. It's a little bit of a shame that we pretty much agree on everything lol.

    What I will say in regard to the Doctors is that, it seems nowadays that in the UK being just a common labourer, is a bad thing. For example being a builder, being a plumber and those sorts of hands on jobs. However these jobs are actually an integral, important part of any economy. A lot of people are in the mindset of "I must have a degree to be successful." However, now there are too many overqualified people that are just not willing to be paid a low wage to do manual labour. I myself am actually a mechanic so I know all about getting my hands dirty and I really do get to see how the real working class of Britain is affected.
     
  14. smevins

    smevins New Member

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    Brown wasn't trying to maximize profit, but forestall a major, perhaps global, banking crisis. It certainly wasn't the most brilliant move in retrospect, but it is hardly a reason to reject an entire party based on the actions of one person who wasn't the head of the party trying to do their job as best they could to deal with an impending crisis.
     
  15. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    I'll try and elaborate. What astounds me most is that even after he made such an astounding blunder. He was still voted to be the prime minister. I just don't get how after seeing how badly they failed, not just Brown but the party as a whole, that people still want to vote for them. Even now that all this is out there and it is public information. People still support the party. I might not know all the facts but I can quite clearly see the mess we are in.

    To me it shows a high level of media diversion (a lot of which is government influenced) from the actual facts of what happened and what is happening. I don't believe people would of voted in the same way if they knew that this "guru" made the most fundamental of errors when actually selling the gold..
     
  16. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    No worries.

    Well most people I talk to about this issue are very much in favour of leaving and gaining control of our borders.
    The only people that think it's a good are a bit middle class and don't seem to know about how others live outside of their circle.

    But truth be told I don't think anyone is happy about the current state of affairs.
    Almost takes the fun out of it :smile:

    I think that really came from Blair's education policy which dumped so much cash into HE.
    Absolutely. Any economy has to have a variety of different jobs in order to function properly.

    Well that is the line we have been sold for a while and in my experience it's not quite true.
    Actually from the school about half stayed home and had kids while the other half went to university and only one actually has a job related to their degree while the rest are doing things like admin or debt collection e.t.c.

    It's not easy is it?
     
  17. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    I would guess you will vote for UKIP this May? There have been a few good things to come from mass immigration, I think one of the benefits is that as a result, Britain as a country is quite culturally diverse. I think that is a good thing that has happened. I think it actually shows how tolerant as a nation that Britain can be.

    I don't know what that is. I only recently got interested in politics like 1 week ago, and actually it was the speeches Nigel Farage gave in the European parliament that encouraged me to get involved. It was then I realised that I had basically been living blind for a long time. I didn't really care what happened around me. So for me he is an inspirational man and a lot of my enthusiasm comes from him.

    It really isn't. I'll tell what really annoys employees and it really grinds my gears too.

    That is the fact that if you work in a small but quite successful business or anything bigger, the owners or directors generally tell the staff that they only take a very small salary. They also claim they can prove it with their wage slips which I'm sure they can. However what they forget to mention is the fact, that the car they bought, was purchased under the company, which means that the VAT is reclaimable. The holiday they took was paid for by the company. That fancy they lunch they had in London, was paid for by the company, which means the VAT is reclaimable. That fancy hotel they took their spouse to, that was also a business trip paid for by their company.

    I think you get the picture.That really is in essence what is wrong with this country. The rich get tax breaks everywhere while the poor get nothing except,10k a year tax free.

    There are plus sides in the fact that it does actually reward small business with tax breaks which is great! The downside however is that the bigger a company is more likely to be spending more and the more they will not be paying in vat.
     
  18. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    For the European parliament. I'm not quite satisfied that they've matured enough as a party in order to get my vote for the UK.

    I agree. Cosmopolitanism is in general quite a good thing but when it comes to things like work then it does start to become a burden rather than a benefit which is why I want out of the EU.

    Sorry about that. It stands for Higher Education. I mentioned it because when I was growing up under Blair there was a huge drive for getting pupils into University.

    Good on you. I'm always happy to hear of people taking an interest.
    Well I find that nobody really teaches you about politics in this country and there's little encouragement and couple that with peoples struggle to keep head above water; it's quite understandable.

    I quite like Farage, quite bright actually and does speak without reservation.

    It depends on the business really, some place comfort on their managers over the employees while others try and keep things fair.
    But there's always going to be some amount of corruption in business perhaps not all.

    I think we get more than most countries. But the thing that hurts the most is I think is simply the cost of living; if it were lower then more things would be possible.
     
  19. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    It really is hard to get some people interested because they already seem to have been defeated. In fact I just got a text from my own brother telling me that he might not even vote!

    I'm sure some companies are different. I have no doubt some of them are brilliant. However in my experience (so far) this is what I have seen and what my colleagues have noticed.

    Well I think you actually just about hit the nail all the way down to China. Which is probably where most of our manufacturing plants will end up. Because they to are being forced to comply with EU legislation on CO2 emissions. It inevitably drives up costs for any business. I believe it is also estimated that every person in the UK is paying an extra 15% on their gas and electric bills, to cover the cost of the CO2 laws imposed upon us. I mean that right there is a lot of money, especially if things are already tight.
     
  20. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    What amuses me about the folk that vote UKIP is that they are merely voting for Thatcherism; that is necessarily damaging to the 'common man' but they buy into the sound-bites and the buffoonery.

    Let's hope Scotland goes independent and the EU funds the Hadrian Wall rebuild. Keep the English oiks out!
     
  21. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    Let me ask you a question. I want a truthful and a genuinely thought out answer to this. How on this Earth does Scotland plan to leave the UK to become independent by joining the EU. I'm sorry but joining the EU will not make you independent. The Scottish people do not seem to understand that. So please tell me how you plan to achieve that.

    How do you plan to be independent while being governed by the EU?
     
  22. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Comparing economic integration with political independence is nonsense. Scotland threw out the UKIP buffoon because they recognise what they are. Remember it was Thatcherism that wasted much of Scotland's oil receipts (by quadrupling unemployment). Instead of investing (like Norway), it propped up a failed right wing regime forced on the good Scottish folk.

    Red herring! The loss of sovereignty refers to trade relations. Even if the UKIP buffoons got their way Little England would be a slave to European policy, particularly if they want to keep the City of London as the European financial centre.
     
  23. thebacon

    thebacon New Member

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    That's great and everything but I don't think you actually answered my question. You avoided a real answer by beating around the bush and pretending that the EU will help you. You will not have political independence, you will not have independence on anything. If you think that the two are not linked while being part of the EU I'm afraid you and most of Scotland are being sold a frankly false and in the end unfair offer, by both your MPS and by the EU.

    You think that if you leave the UK the EU will give you back all your fishing rights? Do you actually believe that? There is no chance of that happening if you want to be part of the EU. You know what the BEST part about Scottish independence is? It's the fact you want to keep the pound! That is the best idea and you definitely should keep it because I'm afraid if you don't you will lose any and all stability. Scotland is smart enough to figure that one out. So why can't they figure out that you can not be independent by keeping the pound and by being a member of the EU. The two just do not mix.

    The Euro is proven time and time again to have a devastating effect on economies. Look at Greece. One currency is not suitable for 27 different countries. The whole independent debate, I think is going in the wrong direction, the fact you think leaving the UK will give you more power in the EU is absurd. If you want your fish back we need an independent United Kingdom and not an independent Scotland.
     
  24. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I went further. I stated the question was based on a nonsense outlook. Confusing economic integration with political control isn't a good idea. Scotland has suffered because of Thatcherism and assorted right wing knuckle dragging. UKIP promise more of the same, whilst deliberately ignoring that Little England will always have to cower to Europe. Are you seriously telling me that the Thatcherites behind UKIP would allow Frankfurt to take over all of that lolly?

    Small countries benefit from the EU. Just a matter of fact. However, we'd expect Scotland to benefit less as- unlike other countries- they have numerous valuable assets.

    Of course Scotland will. For example, Scotland will be free to laugh at the silly Little Englanders voting in right wing knuckle draggers and cow-towing to Etonian spiffs.

    Given the tragedy of the commons, its imperative that fishing rights are maintained.

    Scotland knows that its best trade partner is England. Keeping the pound makes sense. It would only be temporary mind you.

    There is nothing wrong with monetary union. It just needs economies which are similar in their nature. Would Scotland eventually join the Euro? Probably. But it would need a few years to undo the damage engineered by Thatcherite stupidity first.

    Fish don't wave flags dear chap. The shift to European control is the only means to guarantee the survival of fishing fleets
     
  25. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    I've often thought that that we as Britons are a rather subdued and under-motivated people but we need to keep pushing for better.

    In my experience my biggest gripe was just how disorganised some companies are.

    China is an interesting one. They are finding that they're economy is growing so much in terms of value that they're actually outsourcing to Vietnam.

    But our manufacturing tends not to spread too far as a lot of it seems to go to either Poland or the Czech Republic.

    Yep. Means they have to reduce their costs in order to manage and the 20% VAT doesn't help either.

    I noticed that the resident amateur economist has joined the fray.
     

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