Putin begs NATO for a peaceful solution (in order to avoid the new sanctions),How is

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by litwin, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    Putin begs NATO for a peaceful solution (in order to avoid the new sanctions),How is close the filling station to an economical collapse?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27072351
     
  2. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    ...........
     
  3. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    :)))))
    The so-called sanctions are becoming the most popular thing to make jokes for. There are serious analysts who would like that the sanctions to have bank accounts abroad are imposed on 100% of state ifficials 100% of businessman and 100% of media. But unfortunately your NGO grantsuckers are against and it is actually them who drive White House crazy.
     
    RiseAgainst and (deleted member) like this.
  4. krunkskimo

    krunkskimo New Member

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    sanctions are targeted so you may think its funny but your leaders miss their frozen money which is why russia is caveing. no sense in punishing the population of russia, the poor low wage alcoholics.
     
  5. Rainbow Crow

    Rainbow Crow New Member Past Donor

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    I love it when I beg and then get everything I asked for it. It's hawt.
     
  6. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    I was just told a possible deal has been proposed to the U.S. by Putin that has Russian Troops currently outside of the Crimea and Ukraine stopping and holding position in a defensive nature while current Russian Forces in the Ukraine to be reduced in phases over an as of yet undetermined time period.

    It has become completely evident that the Russian Business People who count upon exporting goods to the U.S. and E.U. have FINALLY screamed at Putin to KNOCK IT OFF!!!

    When it all comes down to it....Putin knows that the current Russian Economy cannot handle Heavy Sanctions right now and it is also apparent that the U.S. has called Putin's BLUFF that Russia might cease all sales of Natural Gas to Europe if Sanctions are applied by the U.S. and E.U.

    Putin took this as far as he possibly could but Putin KNOWS....for Russia to actually stop selling Gas to Europe would be much more damaging to Russia than it would be to the E.U.

    AboveAlpha
     
  7. Rainbow Crow

    Rainbow Crow New Member Past Donor

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    You guys don't seem to have realized that if Ukraine federalizes, it almost surely means that Russia can sell gas to eastern Ukraine without also having to sell gas to western Ukraine. Since Ukraine's industries are already concentrated in the eastern half of the country, that make the economic centers within the Russian sphere of influence the true capital of a new Ukraine.

    A federalization deal will be a complete route for the west in Ukraine.
     
  8. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    It has been determined that the newly discovered Natural Gas deposits in the Crimea are 1000 times greater than originally estimated.

    Putin fears if the Crimea stays as a part of the Ukraine then the Ukraine could undercut Russian Natural Gas Prices to Europe and then use the current complex Natural Gas Pipeline in the Ukraine to replace Russia as Europe's #1 Supplier of Natural Gas.

    THAT...is what this entire issue is about.

    AboveAlpha
     
  9. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.
    1) There are no regular troops of Russia in Ukraine. Only spies and trainers are suspected of being located there.
    2) A promise or a proposal or whatever to reduce trainers and spies in Ukraine over an undetermined period of time is the biggest pile of <rap I have ever heard of.
    3) Crimea was inhabited with 70-80% of prorussians. East and south is now 50-60%. (Center - less than 50%. Probably one third and west - 10-15% of scared and supressed minority) Crimea had russian troops who could back up the rebels (Black Sea fleet) and south east - doesn't. Since the rebels are from the region it is natural that they will keep their grounds without any order from Putin.

    Which businessmen are you talking about? Please eat your own propaganda. :)
    1) The west tells that all the russian exports is gas and oil and nothing else.
    2) This type of products are owned by Putin friends.

    So how the hell Putin minions can dare to push him to knock anything???!!! What kind of substance should replace the brains into believing in such nonsense???!!!

    Russia can stop selling gas to Europe. It can even refuse to sell its oil. This will bring lots of sufferings to people and economy. It is not deadly but the standards of living will drop heavily. On the other side it woud be a heavy blow for lots of countries in EU. Some small countries will have to go bankrupt and ask for help from bigger contributors who will also experience a heavy blow. Some small countries like Baltic will be crushed by possible sanctions from Russia. But of course it will not be deadly for the core of EU and will not be even noticed in the US who has virtually no economical ties with Russia. But politicians never behave like that. Putin is not going to shut any of his cooperation down with EU. Putin is not a child. So where have you taken a possibility of these plans?

    EU has some clowns in the parliament who propose headlines to corporate western media. They are well-paid for that. But it doesn't mean that all the ministers and goverments of EU would refuse of russian resources in order to force Putin to act the way it is needed by the white house. If it happens and EU refuses of cooperation with Russia - Putin will definetely try to make these ties with countries that wish to preserve their economy and to give up their place in the EU-project. And that's the only possible result of such a stupidity.
     
  10. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    What I am posting about if you have not yet heard of this...perhaps because I get direct updates sent to me in real time....is something that will most likely be reported unless they are waiting until the specific timeline for Russian Phased Troop Withdraws to be determined.

    The CRIMEA is a part of the Ukraine and there have been and currently are Russian Troops in the Ukraine and there have been Russian Spetsnaz in the Crimean area of the Ukraine since shortly after the Winter Olympics ended.

    AboveAlpha
     
  11. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    By the way....Putin himself is proposing this deal to Washington because Putin KNOWS that it is most likely that if large numbers of Russian Forces enter the Ukraine bloodshed is inevitable.

    Putin also knows that the United States has told Putin that under no uncertain terms will the U.S. and Europe be deterred from placing Heavy Sanctions upon Russia if actual bloodshed and fighting breaks out in the Ukraine.

    Thus the ever practical Putin KNOWS that if he sends in Russian Troops bloodshed will occur and the U.S. will apply heavy sanctions and FORCE EUROPE to apply heavy sanctions as well as if the European's don't they will be faced with something a lot worse than not being allowed to purchase Russian Gas or Oil...that being not being allowed or having heavy tariffs placed upon all European Exports to the United States...something the European Economies cannot do without or withstand.

    Putin was hoping that the U.S. would back off and be bluffed into not applying sanctions if Russian Troops caused bloodshed in the Ukraine.

    SMARTLY...Putin sees the current situation as a NO WIN for Russia.

    AboveAlpha
     
  12. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    If the US officials make their decisions based on this sort of information - then I understand why the world is in such a deep economical and political crisis. But I hope that you just want to play big and knowledgeable. This is more natural to the Internet rather than things that you tell as "might" happening.

    No longer. You missed the news. Some politicians want it to be ukrainian, but the citizens of Crimea decided it differently.

    There has always been russian military in Crimea for the nearest centuries. And every russian squadron compared to ukrainian colleagues can be estimated as Spetsnaz. It has never been concealed that Baltic Sea Fleet consists not only of ships and seamen. It also has marines and soldiers for special missions. This fleet and soldiers were also used to make peace after georgian aggression against Ossetia and Abkhazia. It has never been a secret. It was never concealed. But no special troops invaded Ukraine from the territory of Russia. The most job was done by local armed regiments. By those who lived in the Crimean region. The west preferred to close the eyes and pretend that nothing happened but russians are not the puppets to dance like any of the sexual perverts from department of state demands. They do what they consider is right to do and that is what the world is and you will have to put up with it.
     
  13. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    Think about this...what would be Putin's end game?

    What could Putin and Russia possibly gain from other than annexing the Crimea by actually refusing to sell Natural Gas and Oil to Europe?

    The amount of money Russia takes in from Exports to Europe and the U.S. far exceed any exports to Russia by Europe or the U.S.....so since Russia depends upon exports as a source of revenue and as well the major export of Russia is NATURAL GAS AND OIL.

    The Russian Economy is tiny...fragile compared to either the U.S.#1.in the world at $17.7 Trillion and the E.U. at $12.3 Trillion as well as the U.K. at over $3 Trillion.

    Basically sanctions could be applied to Russia from nations having a total GNP of over $33 Trillion compared to Russia's tiny $2 Trillion GNP.

    These nations could economically DESTROY the Russian Economy and the U.S. in a bind could help supplu Europe with LNG and Oil.

    Putin KNOWS he has come to the end of his bluff and the Crimea and Ukraine certainly are not worth Russia's trade relations with us.

    AboveAlpha
     
  14. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    That is a sure thing. That is why Putin hasn't try to scare anyone with 'red lines' scum, but has made military training and received a permission from parliament to use russian military but hasn't used it so far. Putin doesn't want a bloodshed.

    C'mon. Even Iran is living for decades with the strongest of the strongest sanctions. What are these sanctions? So far it was a joke. And now west is not able even to make jokes rating its own possible sanctions in a strange way. That's just childish.

    This is real. Americans would only gain if Ukraine decsends into bloody chaos and EU would lose cheap resources and possibility to compete with american goods. Putin understands it. And europeans also do it. So it is a matter of political will. If current european political elite follows the ukrainian pattern of being US puppets they will get the same result that happens in the Ukraine... But mind please that these are the sanctions not against Russia, which can afford it, but against EU which cannot.

    Also true. Russia has no win in the current situation. But it can LOSE a lot. If Russia betrays its people in the Ukraine (which is already the most agitated news in the Internet that is pressed by international agents) then Putin would lose not only the Ukraine, but any trust of former soviet republics population and the public trust inside Russia. Putin willnever choose a loss in the situation.
     
  15. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    What quote do you have of Russia begging? The only ones in this article are them saying the protestors on both sides are responsible to disarm, and that if they attack pro-Russian protestors it would be an "abyss" for them. Otherwise they only agreed to the same thing that all parties on all sides, including USA, agreed that they wanted. Only Kerry, Obama etc. continue to moan about Russia, even scoffing off the potential of this agreement. The usual response from that diplomatically hostile humiliation diplomacy that comes the USA.

    If anyone needs to beg, it's both sides, who have to somehow get their own pissed off protesting posses to disarm and de-escalate. They only just agreed they could not defuse the situation diplomatically, it's up to the protestors to chill for a bit.
     
  16. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    Who are you, Putin's mind-reader? What else would you have wanted Russia to do? Refuse to sign? If they did that, would you be complaining like you are now, just like Obama and Kerry, who are even denigrating the whole world's international Ukraine de-escalation accord, which they only previously agreed complete with cheesy pleasantries.
     
  17. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Obvious. Putin wants to end the game with an economic customs union with former republics of USSR,leaving a political unification for future politicians. He would like to preserve a neutral Ukraine which consists of different parts and has its own indepent economy and politics. For the moment RUssia is not ready for anything more than that.

    Political and military perspectives. You don't even know unfortunately how this reunification affected russians. This move is something that russians are eager to fight for with the whole world. So if the US choose the war for Europe - Russians are ready. If Putin was keeping aside of the US bloody coup in Kiev he would have been overthrown or his rating would go down from (now 80%) former 60% to Yeltsin's level of 10-15%, which would make any of Putin's projects impossible.

    That is true. Noone argues. But it used to be much worse just 20 years ago. Every economy has problems.

    :))) What are these misterious sanctions? There was never a friendhip between US government and russians. US never did anything useful to russians. Only as a side effect of more possibilities for them. So there is no sanctions that can be imposed on Russia. Well. EU can refuse of russian resources and markets. True. This would hurt. This would create an iron dome again when the west would exclude Russia from its 'global economy'. But this would kill the EU and would a little bit extend the life of a dying empire #1. Maybe for 5 years. Not more.

    Amerian shale products are more expensive than russian. If EU will be politically driven to damage the competitive qualities of their products it would be a dramatic gain for US. But not for long. Once the germans and french start to live at the level of contemporary american ruled ukrainians it will only get difficult for the US.

    Who is 'us'? In this game Russia is not gaining. But is able to lose everything. This is tough but it leaves no choice to Putin but to be firm and stay russian grounds.
     
  18. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    The thing is that we basically KNEW but for a while were actually unsure due to the erratic almost 19th Century Mentality Putin was displaying we actually for a while wondered if Putin would allow his ego to govern his decisions but now we see that Putin is not stupid enough to bet the entire Russian Economy upon whether or not the U.S. would call his bluff and apply heavy sanctions and force the Europeans to do the same.

    But for a while there Putin's ruthlessness took us by surprise as well we had a deal in place as Russia promised NOT to actively send any troops in either Georgia or the Ukraine as Russia promised this in exchange for the U.S. paying for and destroying all former Soviet Nuclear and Chemical Weapons in Georgia and the Ukraine.

    We also were surprised that Putin would so easily place at risk the entire Russian Economy as both Putin and we know Russia's economy would completely collapse if both the U.S. and Europe placed heavy sanction upon it.

    It kind of leaves us scratching our heads as we no longer consider Russia a threat to the United States anymore and every time Putin uses Cold War Mentally to enter his speeches directed at the older Russian Demographic who longs for the days when the Soviet Unions Leaders said or did something they were not ignored as that is what happens now.

    So basically we know when Putin talks about a Russian Military reengaging the United States Military WE KNOW that due to both the economic realities of Russia as well as the enormous gap now existing between both countries Military's as Russia would increase Military Spending by 1000% a year and continue to do this for 20 years and Russia STILL would not come close to building a Military capable in any way of engaging the U.S. Military as too big a gap exists as Russian Military Capabilities although better than they were 10 years ago are STILL so degraded that Russia could never catch up with the U.S. Military capabilities.

    But such talk by Putin which we always ignore took on an air of seriousness with this possible conflict.

    We were worried that all the aid and help we have been giving to Russia to help build up the Russian Economy would be for not as we might have to impose sanctions and destroy what we have been doing since 1993.

    Fortunately Putin has ended this game.

    AboveAlpha
     
  19. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Why you americans are so dependant of individuals? This Putinputinputinputinputin... what's it about? Well, yes. He is the strongest leader in the world politics for the moment. He has charisma that is enough for all the western leaders altogether. But he is not the guy who only drives. He is also driven. By his country. By the situation around Russia. By economic and political situation in the world. By the level of culture and society development. You resemble kievan puppets who have to explain their every move for the moment by... Putin's actions. It is just stupid and ugly looking. This is not a 19th century thinking. This is a pre-christian thinking, pagan thinking, pre-historic thinking.

    It was first of all done in the interests of the US. The amount of mass destruction weapons in the USSR was enourmous and the best aim for such weapon is the country which is the most hated country in the world. Try to guess what is its name to see the real driver for the US.

    It has never been. There was only a shallow rhetorics about the working class who is destined to win the vistory over the capitalists. Only this belief accustomed hostility of US rulers towards soviet nations. And the fear that some day capitals will be taken by crowds of people is still alive. So this cold war mentality is not Putin's desease but yours.

    This is an obvious lie. First of all the 'might' of NATO was shown in Afghanistan were americans failed even to get a result that was achieved by USSR. This failure is already admitted. The guys opposing NATO in Afghanistan don't have any of the capabilities that Russia has. How can that be?
    The thing is that the tasks between US military and Russian military are completely different. US task is to control the world. US needs to control the seas and to bomb a country into a stone age if it fits current political and ecnomical situation in the US. If you make this task for Russian military forces - they would refuse telling that they are incapable of that. We don't have carriers with assault aviation. We don't have troops and equipment to stay outside Russia and be ready to make counter-strikes upon the villages that were used by terrorist attacks or something of that kind. Russia will not have money for that for a long-long-long time and even a task to perform anything like this is impossible. But who told you that Russia is sharing an aggressive task of US military?! :) Russian forces don't seek to get the resources. We have them already. Russian military has the anti-ship artillery and rocket systems to protect, but no assault ships like carriers. Russia has anti-air missiles, which can be regarded as the best in the world. But these systems are helpless against such countries as Baltic countries or Georgia... These countries simply don't have the planes to shoot down! :) Russian army has enough arms for every man in Russia and special weapons for Spetsnaz. But we don't have the weapons and systems to perform missions like "assacination of Bin Laden show". Such a task will never be ordered by Putin and will never be broadcasted over Russian TV.
    So if a question is if russians can substitute american army in all of its project the answer is a strong 'No'. The budgets and tasks are different. Our army doesn't have teeth that long and sharp to be able of biting the world in its soft and tasty spots. But if the question is about ability of russian army to protect russians then I would answer 'Yes'. Because the task of russian army was to punch into NATO chin and break off all the teeth trying to bite russians. That is the task. And that is what the army was made for.

    This help is a fetish that exists only in propaganda. US never helped Russia and it is not in the position to blackmail Russia of turning down its friendship. US government was never a friend of ours. Unfortunately.
     
  20. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    I am simply saying that Putin's actions took us by surprise but in the end Putin is practical.

    AboveAlpha
     
  21. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    You should make your replies upon multiple posts as these take forever and a day to reply to.

    First of all the U.S. has neither the desire or the need to invade Russia.

    Since Russia has Nukes such a thing is impractical at best.

    If no Nukes were used and if in a fantasy scenario we had U.S. Ground Forces and the USAF in support making an attempt to invade Russia could the U.S. Military do it?

    Without a doubt.

    The current front line Russian Tank existing in any numbers is the T-72 as newer Russian Tanks only exist in small numbers.

    Russian T-72's and BMP 3's against an all integrated U.S. Military Force using not only M1A2 Abrams Tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles along with Self Propelled Artillery and Multiple Independent Rocketed Munitions all being provided air cover by the U.S. Air Force....Russian Forces would not have a chance.

    AboveAlpha
     
  22. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    By the way...how can you say that the U.S. has not helped Russia?

    We have gone out of our way to help Russia as it is in our best interests to have a Democratic Russia so we have done everything from pay to destroy Soviet Weapons being POINTED AT MOSCOW by former Soviet States such as Georgia and the Ukraine...and such weapons would be pointed at Russia right now if we had not destroyed them.

    The U.S. was responsible for forcing many European Nations to forgive massive Soviet Debt.

    We were the one's that forced other G-7 Members to allow you to be a member of the New G-8.

    We provided direct monetary aid to Russia when it was a new democracy and when Russia's Military had degraded so badly as to leave Russia wide open to attack we certainly did not attack.

    AboveAlpha
     
  23. RiseAgainst

    RiseAgainst Banned

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    I don't believe this. It is a lie.
     
  24. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    I prefer this form of answering. Because mostly it is the only way for a logical answer to the posts that either have no sense or have different subjects in one post.

    So what business do US have in the Ukraine? What kind of business is made by placing anti-nuclear missiles and radars next to russian borders? Why do all the foreign agents that work in the countries around Russia support the most anti-russian information policy for the money of the american tax-payer?
    I asked these questions lots of times but it seems that everyone knows the answer but is shy to tell in person that you just hate Russia being so big, rich in resources and capable to do what it needs. You want to see it a weak colony which will do what is needed to do and think what is needed to think.

    Not if another carrer-maker tells that he knows the way to neutralize the danger of russian rockets. If the president of US is capable of starting a war that is impossible to win (like they did several times) it also makes sense. Practically US proved that they are ready to attack Russia and are willing to take the risk. So again Russia doesn't have that much to lose.

    In a fantasy scenario everything is possible. I would see a chance in a coup-making. If russians are persuaded that it is not an american invasion but a humanitarian operation to protect russian bears from space radiation then there is a chance that russians will not rise up against americans. But if russians do rise up against US like they did in the south and east of Ukraine - there is no chance you can win.

    True. It is a newer version of T-72 like most weapons that are for the moment in the world. Cold war brought an enourmous developement of weapons. But there is no new tasks for it. It was made in 1994 So it is as good as the Abrams (1990) armor that was made the same dates. Or even Bradley1970) that is even older. It is also the same about the quality of self propelled artillery systems and the unchallenged russian SAMs that make russian force a formidable and unbeatable... On our territory. But if the task is to invade US from Alaska and to come to NYC then this task is impossible for russian army. So in a nutshell american equipment is as strong against russian equipment as your words against mine.
     
  25. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    Yes, and unless the Western Alliance pull out their wallet on behalf of Ukraine, Russia still has the card to turn off all their gas exports during a single moment during the startup of the cruel and cold continental winter. But unlike know-it-alls, some who are on this thread, that only want to complain even though a diplomatic breakthrough was reached (they should be celebrating, and recognizing that Russia cooperated, is that now what they demanded?)

    And people just make up their bull(*)(*)(*)(*) about why Putin did this. Maybe he just wants to prevent bloodshed? Maybe it's the same as whatever the Western reasons are, or what they claim they are. What we do know for sure is, it is in their strategic interests. Agree to this, actually do this and put effort on those militias, then watch what the other side does.. Do they get their protestors to leave? Pull out any of the recently added warships, that have Russian targets in their range? Do they surge to the East border of Ukraine to square up with Russia, and when their forces come back, try to spin it off as Russia escalating? (my prediction).. So Russia have the chance to do something the right way, which they don't necessarily do, as they, along with China just stonewalled the UNSC so they otherwise can't take action against North Korea, which is the most urgent need for use of military assets of anybody and everybody to completely eradicate any and all military toys and armed soldiers loyal to the dictator there.
     

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