End the Occupation!!

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Ronstar, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When will Israel finally end their Occupation of Arab Palestine?

    When will Israel finally stop building illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories?
     
  2. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    It won't, not in the short term anyway. While there is a political and religious connection between the existence of Israel and its expansion beyond the 1947 borders, the problem will continue. Not enough Israelis understand the need for curtailment of expansion yet, I hope they get the message soon though.
     
  3. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    What is this thread BUT pure nonsense. Please
    The issue was never Israel !
    The issue was allways the Palestinian wall of lies and their anti desire to make peace.
     
  4. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    I love it when people show their <ignorance> in public...

    A great error is made regarding Article 25 and Trans-Jordan. It is even made by Zionists. It is the view that in 1922 three-fourths of Palestine was given to the Arabs, and thereafter Palestine was limited to the area West of the Jordan River.

    The opening words of Article 25 disprove this statement:

    In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, ...

    This proves that the land on both sides of the Jordan continued to be part of the Mandate for Palestine and that the eastern border of Trans-Jordan continued to be the eastern border or the Mandate.

    Article 25 allowed the British, with the consent of the Council of the League, to "postpone or withhold" but not to cancel application of certain provisions of the Mandate.

    On September 16, 1922, the Council approved a "Memorandum by the British Government relating to its application to Transjordan," and thereafter the quoted language was included in the Mandate's title. The Memorandum should always be read as part of the Mandate. Most copies of the Mandate unfortunately omit it.

    The Memorandum postponed or withheld application of the Jewish National Home provisions in "the Territory known as Transjordan, which comprises all territory lying to the East" from two miles West of Akaba on the Gulf of Akaba up the Jordan and Yarmuk River to the Syrian Frontier.

    But of the 28 articles of the Mandate, 19 in full and parts of 3 others continued to apply in Transjordan. The Jews continued to have legal rights there, including individual settlement, although in practice the British and the Arabs excluded all Jews. Indeed, the Jewish National Fund continued to own land in Transjordan until the late 1940's.

    All Palestinians East and West of the Jordan traveled with a passport issued by the High Commissioner in Jerusalem. Currency in Transjordan continued to contain the three official languages (English, Arabic and Hebrew) into the early 1950's. Abdullah's Governorship was subject to the authority of the Palestine High Commissioner in Jerusalem. He was counseled by British advisers headed by a Resident as representative of the High Commissioner.

    Thus the promise of the Jewish National Home was withheld in Eastern Palestine, remaining in Western Palestine. Finally, on May 25, 1946, the national identity of the Palestinian Arabs was recognized, when Abdullah was proclaimed King of the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan. This proclamation was of doubtful legality. For example, in its presentations to the League of Nations (which existed until April 19, 1946) and the United Nations, the British falsely claimed that Palestine and Transjordan were separate Mandates, a falsehood now repeated by many who challenge the fact that Jordan is Eastern Palestine. But in 1955 Jordan (ten years later) was admitted to the United Nations. Its legality is thus accepted, and it is the Palestinian Arab Nation-State, or, stated another way, it is the Arab State in Palestine.

    The Jewish people are entitled to the land of Eretz Israel that is West of the Jordan River. The Arabs on the other hand have had their self-determination on 77% of the Mandate for Palestine East of the River now called Jordan since May 25, 1946&#8230;

    Let the two peoples, Jews and Arabs live there SIDE BY SIDE in peace and friendship. And it is not necessary in order to do so to give up either any part of the 23% of the Jewish Democratic nature of the State of Israel, nor to dislocate the 77% of the Palestine Mandate now called Jordan where Palestinian Arabs are the majority.
     
  5. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Here is a Czech (separatist) from Slovakia pointing the finger towards Israel 23% and Jordan 77% of the British Mandate.
    Go open a book and learn before indulging in false sloganeering mostly picked from the PLO syllabus... Stop insulting Israel for Israel was insulted by <proffesionals> the last 4000 years.
     
  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, the Jewish Mandate to settle and build a homeland was relegated just to the part of Palestine that was west of the Jordan, as it would have been insane to extend it further.

    But then the locals of western Palestine rose up, and made it clear that they would not allow their interests, rights, and legitimate wishes to be trampled upon, so it was then decided that the Jews would not get all of western Palestine, but it would instead be partitioned between Jews & Arabs, which was the fair and just choice to make.

    Any idea of fantasy of giving all of Palestine or even all of western Palestine just to the Jews, was ignorant, failed, and silly. You can't give 100% of the land to only 10% of the population.

    Plus the fact that the British promised the Arabs that if they rose up against the Ottomans, all liberated Arab lands would become a national Arab state, which of course includes Palestine.

    If the Arabs of Palestine knew that the British were going to give the land to the Jews, they would have instead fought alongside the Ottomans and it would still be under Turkish control.

    - - - Updated - - -

    according to international law, they are not.
     
  7. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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  8. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Mod Edit ~ Rule 2/Personal insult. I am writing the following to clarify the situation... I say that...

    Most Arab antagonists on this and other board keep on negating a FACT accepted by the whole world at large and by Jordan itself&#8230; I have in my possession two Jordanian State Stamps one from 1964, bearing the likeness of King Hussein and pictures Mandated Palestine as an undivided territory [All of Israel of today plus Jordan of today], the other a 1949 stamp pictures King Abdullah of the kingdom of Jordan and bears the label of Palestine in English and Arabic.

    Stamp Abdullah
    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/jordan1.jpg

    Stamp Hussein of Jordan
    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/jordan2.jpg


    If Jordan (ex Trans-Jordan) IS NOT Palestine, what then, was its previous name? One of the answers is in the "Palestinian National Covenant"

    ART 2 : Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the time of the British Mandate is an integral
    regional unit.

    ART 25 ; In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provision of Articles 15, 16 and 18.

    After Jordan Independence May 25, 1946, the word PALESTINE was used on all official documents (see above). King Abdullah wanted to call his newly acquired country the kingdom of Palestine, but the British persuaded him to drop the idea. He had also mentioned in the past : "He (God) granted me success in creating the Government of Transjordan by having it separated from the Balfour Declaration."

    The Raison d&#8217;être of Jordan has been clarified as the creation of a Palestinian order on the East Bank of the river Jordan. Initially an artificial country, established by British Imperial Decree, with unclear boundaries and no national identity, Jordan has taken major strides in trying to build a new collective that might be termed "Jordanian-Palestinian". It is a state in search of a nation to fill it with content and purpose; nation building is proving, however, to be more arduous task now that the national Palestinian identity, authentic as it might be, has been kindled.

    The Palestinian entity of Jordan has not eliminated its ambitions to contest Hashemite control over this sizable part of Mandated Palestine. In essence, the real Palestinian Arab-Jordanian contest is over the East-Bank and not the West-Bank of the Jordan river. The eastern portion of Palestine (Jordan), for objective reasons, is the big prize to be attained.

    Living in their own social and cultural milieu in the Eastern part of Mandated Palestine, and enjoying full political, economic and social rights, the Palestinian Arabs have already achieved all the elements of national self-determination and fulfillment. They constitute a majority within an established political entity, which happens to be situated on over 77% of the original territory of Historic Palestine. Israel controls today only 23% of that territory. Jordan is, therefore, the answer to the "Palestinian problem". It can be designated as either the "Palestine-Jordan Hashemite Kingdom," or the "Republic of Palestine."

    Historic Palestine has been already unevenly partitioned, and Jordan has come out with the Lion share.
     
  9. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    #1. According to the Sykes Picot Agreemant, Palestine extends only west of the Jordan river and its border ends just south of Hebron.

    [​IMG]

    #2. The Mandate for Palestine makes it clear that new Jewish homeland will be created west of the Jordan river. It also says nothing about all of the the land west of the Jordan, being open to Jewish setlement, would be turned into a Jewish homeland. NEVER is it stated "all the land west of the Jordan river shall become a Jewish state". Any suggestion otherwise is absurd & dishonest.

    #2. The British quickly realized that the Arabs of western Palestine would not have their rights trampled upon, and would not allow a Jewish state built in their land without any consultation from them. That's why the Britist rightfuly decided to instead partition west Palestine between the Arabs & Jews.

    #3. Israel has no legal right to the West Bank. The Jews were never promised all of the land west of the Jordan, only that they could settle in all of the land west of the Jordan. The right to settle & live in doesn't equal the right to control.
     
  10. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    The Sykes-Picot Agreement (officially the 1916 Asia Minor Agreement) was a secret agreement reached during World War Ibetween the British and French governments pertaining to the partition of the Ottoman Empire among the Allied Powers. Russia was also privy to the discussions.

    The Mandate was therefore the official document that came in lieu of the agreement.

    the Mandate for Palestine had a primary and overriding purpose and object - namely, the establishment of the Jewish National Home in Palestine. All other duties of the Mandatory must be then deemed to be subordinated to this primary object and no provision of the Mandate can properly be interpreted so as to entail any departure or derogation from this primary purpose. This is clear from the wording of the Mandate itself.

    The Preamble explains why the Mandate was created and sets out its purpose. The first clause of the Preamble declares it to be the intention of the Principal Allied Powers that Palestine should be administered under a Mandatory regime. The second clause proceeds to explain that the purpose of the Mandate is to put into effect the Balfour Declaration; accordingly the clause declares that the Mandatory shall be responsible for doing so. None of the remaining clauses of the Preamble make any mention of other purposes or objects. Manifestly, no other was intended. This is evident also from the contents of the third clause of the Preamble.

    The British authorities themselves recognized that their first obligation was to help achieve the establishment of the Jewish National Home. Thus, the Colonial Office wrote to the Palestine Arab delegation in April 1922 that "the declaration, as you are aware, provided, first, for the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Palestine; and, secondly, for the preservation of the rights and interests of the non Jewish population of the country."

    This is also evident from the fact that immediately after the first Article conferring upon the Mandatory the necessary powers of legislation and administration to carry out the Mandate, Article 2 begins with a proviso that the Mandatory shall "be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish National Home, as laid down in the Preamble..." The effect of the remaining part of Article 2 will be considered later.
     
  11. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Balfour Declaration was written in 1917. And in 1917 Palestine didn't go east of the Jordan river and didn't go south of Hebron, and didn't include Israel's northern panhandle.
     
  12. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Historical facts on the Balfour Declaration


    HBendor

    Historical facts on the Balfour Declaration (precursor) of the Mandate for Palestine

    The British and French governments concluded the secret Sykes-Picot Agreement on May 16, 1916. This undertaking allowed a postwar creation of Arab states on the Arabian Peninsula and divided the rest of the Ottoman domains in the Fertile Crescent between the two powers.

    The outbreak of war had effectively prevented any further development of the Zionist settlements in Palestine, and the main efforts of this cause shifted to England, where discussion with Zionists was, seen as having potential value to the pursuit of British war aims. The protracted negotiations with the British foreign office were climaxed on November 2, 1917, by the letter from Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour that became known as the Balfour Declaration. This document declared the British government's "sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations," viewed with favor "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish People," and announced an intent to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

    Also in November 1917, the Bolshevik government revealed the contents of the Sykes-Picot Agreement. Arab consternation at the content was palliated by British and French reassurances, however, and by the fact that allied military operations were progressing favorably. Feisal&#8217;s Arabs took Al Aqaba in July 1917, and Jerusalem fell to Field Marshal Edmund Allenby on December 9, 1917. The British subsequently defeated Turkish forces remaining in Syria and Feisal entered Damascus in triumph on October 1, 1918. The armistice with Turkey was concluded on October 31, 1918.

    Feisal, met with Chaim Weizmann, representing WZO, on January 3,1919 and signed an agreement pledging the two parties to mutual cooperation under the Balfour Declaration concept.

    An American group known as the King-Crane Commission was appointed in 1919 by President Woodrow Wilson to investigate and report on the problem of disposition of Ottoman territories and the assigning of mandates.

    From the Paris Peace Conference and the sub-conference of San Remo emerged the League of Nations Covenant and the mandate allocations making Great Britain the mandatory power for Palestine East & West of the Jordan River) and Mesopotamia = Iraq... and granting France the mandate for Syria and Lebanon. The mandate's terms reaffirmed the Balfour Declaration, called upon the mandatory power to "secure establishment of the Jewish national home," and recognized '.'an appropriate Jewish agency" for advice and cooperation to that end. The WZO was specifically recognized as that agency.

    Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine developed early and continued at an erratically rising tempo throughout the mandate period. Meanwhile, in Damascus Feisal had convened the General Syrian Congress in July 1919 and proclaimed Syria sovereign and independent. In March 1920 this congress reaffirmed the independence of both Syria and Mesopotamia/Iraq, and it declared Feisal king of Syria and Abdullah king of Iraq. In April, however, the San Remo conference carved out the mandates, and soon French troops began moving from Beirut into Syria. The French took Damascus on July 25, 1920 and deposed Feisal who fled to Europe and remained there until installed by the British as king of Mesopotamia/Iraq in 1921.

    At the time of Feisal's ouster, his brother Abdullah was in what is now Trans-Jordan Jordan today... endeavoring to organize a counter effort against the French. it then became clear to Abdullah and the British that Abdullah was acceptable as ruler to the Bedouin tribes east of the Jordan, including the locally powerful Bani Sakhr. Palestine had not been specifically defined. After the British and French had agreed, under the Sykes Picot guidelines, as to what constituted Lebanon, Syria, and Mesopotamia, what was left over, by elimination, was the Mandate of Palestine. This included, in effect, the territory of pre-June 1967 Jordan and Israel Armistice Line.

    In March 1921 Winston Churchill, then colonial secretary, convened a high- level British policy council in Cairo. As a result of its deliberations, Great Britain surreptitiously divided the Palestine mandate along the Jordan River-Al Akaba line.

    The eastern portion, or Transjordan, was to have an Arab administration, under British guidance, with Abdullah as Emir. He was recognized as de facto ruler in April 1921. Revisions in the final draft of the mandate were made to give Great Britain much latitude in this area and were approved by the League of Nations Council in July 1922. A British memorandum in September 1922 excluded Transjordan from the zone of the Jewish national home as an Article #25 was conveniently sandwiched between the Articles of the Mandate for Palestine.
     
  13. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    when the Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917, Palestine didn't include Israel's northern panhandle, and didn't go south of Hebron.

    that means that according to the Balfour Declaration, Israel has no right to these lands.
     
  14. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    The Mandate is an official historical fact. It was given to the British by the League of Nations in 1920 and confirmed by the same League in 1922
     
  15. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Balfour Declaration was made in 1917.

    In 1917, Palestine didn't include Israel's northern panhandle, didn't go past the Jordan river, and didn't extend south of Hebron.

    So according to the original declaration letting the Jews settle and make a homeland in Palestine, they are not allowed to settle south of Hebron. Eilat, Beersheba, are Arab land...according to Balfour.

    The Mandate for Palestine expired when the British abandoned the Mandate, Israel declared independence, and the UN recognized Israel as a soverign state.
     
  16. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is still hope.

    When the Mandate was handed over to Britain in addition to the Mesopotamian Mandate it was mapped and confirmed by the League of Nation as you it here...


    http://www.mythsandfacts.org/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm
     
  17. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Jews have been in violation of the Mandate since 1949, when they commited ethnic cleansing against hundreds of thousands of non-Jews.

    They did it again in 1967.

    And now they do it on a daily basis in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

    If the Jews want the rights that the Mandate gives them to settle in all of Palestine, they have to abide by the protections for non-Jews in Palestine.
     
  18. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    I do not know why I am wasting my time with you.
    I gave you an official link... open it and study it please... Your arguments are just hearsays. Bye.
     
  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you cut & paste a lot of garbage.

    but you still fail to refute my arguments.

    If the Jews still have right to settle all of Palestine due to the Palestine Mandate, than the Jews are bound to respect the rights of non-Jews in same area....and they hae failed miserably to do so.

    If the Palestine Mandate is still active, the Palestinians can sue Israel for violating it.
     
  20. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    [MENTION=62867]Ronstar[/MENTION], et al,

    This is almost right.

    (COMMENT)

    The Balfour Declaration is NOT an enforceable document. It is merely a statement of a political position the government holds. But it is, in no way a binding commitment.

    Palestine, in 1917, was undefined. You cannot use the Balfour Declaration to substantiate territorial boundaries. In fact, even at the time of the basic drafting of the Mandate for Palestine, the territory to be called Palestine had not been determined. In both the San Remo Convention and the Treaty of Sevres (Article 95), the same language is used: "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers."

    Special Note: What is meant when the descriptor "PALESTINE" is used? That is defined, very specifically, in the Palestine Order in Council.

    PART I. PRELIMINARY.
    Title.1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."​

    The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.​

    "Palestine" is the short Title name for the "Mandate for Palestine"


    It should be noted that during the period 1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921, General Allenby, Commander-in-Chief of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF), established the Civil Administration of the Area that will come to be known as "Palestine." In the first Interim Report, the C-in-C explains:

    The Mandate did not "expire;" and the Mandatory (the UK) did not abandon anything. The Mandate was terminated by the Mandatory (the UK). It was pre-arranged and formally announced the UN Palestine Commission as the Successor Government, stating the status of the territory.

    The termination was discussed, it was not an abandonment. "This decision was announced to the House of Commons by the Foreign Secretary on the 18th February 1947. In the course of his speech he said:"

    Israel Declared Independence on mid-night ending the 14th - beginning the 15th - of May 1948 (as previously announced supra), in coordination with the UN Palestine Commission (the Successor Government to the Mandatory). The State of Israel was proclaimed after having completed the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" as directed by General Assembly Resolution 181(II), in the territory allotted by the General Assembly as annotated in Map Annex A to Resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly.

    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
  21. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, the British terminated the Mandate for Palestine. Thank you.
     
  22. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    The moment the British Flag was lowered ... in its place the Israeli flag was raised.
     
  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yeah, so that means the Mandate was over.

    good bye.
     
  24. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    [MENTION=62867]Ronstar[/MENTION], et al,

    You get partial credit.

    (OBSERVATION)

    Most Respectfully,
    R
     

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