Why does UK Socialist Party and SPGB support mass immigration?

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by munter, May 9, 2014.

  1. munter

    munter New Member

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    This just does not make real sense to me.

    Both the far left Trotskyist Socialist Party of England and Wales, and Socialist Party of GB, support mass immigration.

    Now, they even admit that this plays into the hands of the bosses, but maintain that all working classes should band together to overthrow the system.

    Does this even make any sense whatsoever?

    What's wrong with an honest, regulated system of immigration into the UK?
     
  2. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Its simple.

    First read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

    Once you have done so then you will understand that the far left in the West sees immigration as a way of destroying indigenous culture which is why it always supports Muslims against white people no amtter how abhorrent the ways Muslims might act
     
  3. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    There's no such beast. For example, the pishpotted attempts by the Tories to stop immigration have merely harmed Britain's higher education sector. The only means to reduce immigration is through reduction in international wage differentials. Those against immigration aren't pursuing that objective
     
  4. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    This is amongst the most moronic things I've ever seen.
     
  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Actually it makes perfect sense. If you are a communist, and you want to bring about a crisis of capitalism as soon as possible, that's a good way to of driving down wages, increase unemployment, and drive down living standards. It does play into the hands of the bosses temporarily, but those same immigrants will be hanging those bosses from lampposts in a few years.
     
  6. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    There are plenty of means to reduce immigration. reducing international wage differentials is the least acheivable. ACtually the bext thing is to have lots of illegal immigrant workers who work and shut up. Once they become legal they start demanding and become a net drain rather than a net gain.
     
  7. munter

    munter New Member

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    That is a little trollish, and off topic, though perhaps some truth in there.:wink:
     
  8. munter

    munter New Member

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    That just doesn't add up.

    Wages could be lowered without immigration if needed.

    And education? well that has gone up 3 times in price since mass immigration began!
     
  9. munter

    munter New Member

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    Utter nonsense!

    That has never happened before in the UK, even in times of Feudalism, not on a mass scale at least.

    This thread is looking like a fail, unless some non-propaganda artists feel like contributing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Good post, doesn't mean they'll vote Socialist though - more likely one of the right leaning parties.
     
  10. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    Import of potential voters is certainly one reason. Another thing to realize is that people in control of those parties are anything but poor workers, or even middle class. They have nothing to lose and even benefit from driving wages down or increase in crimes.

    Irrational hatred of capitalism (including welfare capitalism and social democracy) may also be a factor. Many of them spend a big part of their life fighting against capitalism, even building their identity around this fight. And yet when such capitalism is demonstrably successful, it would be emotionaly draining for them to admit that they were wrong all along. So they convince themselves that it will fail, it only takes longer than they thought, and what better way to accelerate this development than to import lots of third world people with problematic cultural traits?
     
  11. munter

    munter New Member

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    I guess that is a factor, ie: create change from within, via a mass popular movement - but just can't for the life of me see how this will turn socialist.

    it's not even in line with Trotsky's thought anyway IMO

    He believed surely, in creating Socialist (ie: the Marxist variety), then spreading that to other nations.

    Not trying to change the whole of Europe at one time from within.
     
  12. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Given the extreme international wage differentials, immigration will always be a problem. How to reduce it? Via economic development in poor country. But are the anti-immigration brigade focused on this solution? Nope! To eliminate immigration in these conditions effectively therefore requires fascist reaction (and any lefty suggesting otherwise is talking bollocks)
     
  13. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    Economic development of poor country is not a solution because for one thing, it is not the responsibility of UK nor is it in their power to be responsible for other nations economy, and more importantly, it is such a gargantuan task to make sure poor countries are economicaly equaly well developed that it is not in our power, it wont happen in foreseeable future no matter what humanity does, if ever. So this is complete BS and you know it. It is Star Trek tier science fiction. Im not sure you were even serious when you suggested it. I do certainly support initiatives to help developing and undeveloped nations but it wont be an effective solution to immigration.

    Regulating immigration is now fascism? lol
     
  14. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    What a insipid reply! Economic development isn't difficult: one just has to support multilateralism. The UK should be supporting the development round of WTO reform, enabling further support for trade reflecting dynamic comparative advantage.

    Those whining about immigration whilst doing naff all to do reduce the real problem are just pissing in the wind.

    The reality is! You can of course vote for the political shepherd who convince you otherwise. But, as shown by the utter failure of the Tory regime to meet their targets, success is reliant on much more aggressive action. Reality isn't your pal
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    How I am partly to blame for Mass Immigration
     
  16. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    Really, you should publish this simple solution and recieve a Nobel price in economics then. It seems we have a genius on these forums who can solve global poverty overnight. :roll:

    More importantly, you have your cause and effect reversed. When your magical solution is implemented and we are all oh so equal, then we can open the borders, I would not have any economics-related objections (completely ignoring cultural differences for now). Not a second sooner.

    The reality is that good regulation of immigration is not hard, certainly doable, and doesnt violate any human rights, nor is it fascist in the slightest. Especially in UK which is an island (for gods sake) far from any problematic countries, with stuff like universal IDs already in place, with relatively effective law enforcement etc.

    All it requires is a dose of political will.
     
  17. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Ricardo got there first. Darn!

    This says naff all. That trade is the means to eliminate absolute poverty and to generate domestic opportunity is well known. So, the real question is: why aren't you aware of it?

    This made me laugh! You couldn't be further from reality.
     
  18. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    Stop trying to pretend that comparative advantage and similar stuff if applied as it should be will solve global poverty and make us all economicaly more or less equal so that all economic anti-immigration arguments dissolve. Its a cool theory and Id support your plan but it is not that effective.

    No, the real question is: why are you so stupidly trying to put cause before (Star Trek tier sci-fi pie in the sky) effect? First economic development and equality, then wide open borders. Which renders your argument moot when it comes to immigration matters, no matter if you are right or not.

    Let me get this straight: you are saying that a government of a developed first world country is incapable of securing its own borders and keeping an eye on immigration so that it is well regulated and illegals are kept to a minimum. Somehow governments, with their dozens of % of GDP in resources, can accomplish many other infinitely more complex tasks, taking care of an entire justice system, police, regulations, healthcare, education, defense/offense and who knows what else. But magically they cannot determine who gets in. Somehow this simple task eludes them.

    Thats false and you know it.

    It takes in the first place a dose of political will (which is very much lacking today), maybe changing a few laws here and there in a non-fascist way, maybe a few internal regulations altered, maybe a small fraction of % of a budget thrown the right way. And suddenly immigration into UK, both legal and illegal, will take a nosedive and can be reduced significantly (except for highly qualified people I guess, dont wanna lose those). Maybe you dont want this happen for one reason or the other, but that doesnt change the fact that it very well could happen.

    Thats reality.
     
  19. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You're droning on here. We know that the most effective poverty alleviation policy is trade. We also know that the 'rich north' have hindered that process (e.g. CAP)

    The utopian is you. You're the one that thinks immigration control is easy. Go and tell that to the Tories. They've failed miserably. And their policies have backfired: such as harming the tertiary education sector's reputation and their part in education of overseas student.

    No. I'm saying that the only way of securing those borders, given the severity of international income inequality, is through aggressive action akin to fascism. You're the one playing pretend.
     
  20. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    The Tories have not failed over immigration. They have no intention of halting immigration since immigration provodes cheap labour.

    The comparison to Fascism is nonsense.
     
  21. munter

    munter New Member

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    How is it fascist for believing other countries should put their own house in order? no, it is not, it is just realism.
     
  22. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    How is it off topic? The UK Socilialist parties are lead by Academics who wholly endorse the Frankfurt theories. It is trolling? How so?
     
  23. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    Reiver uses the term 'fascism' as silly leftists have done for decades, merely as a silly slur.
     
  24. munter

    munter New Member

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    it was the part about the Muslims - because I don't think in reality these parties support Sharia Law etc.., quite the contrary in fact
     
  25. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Its about the reality of policy-making. Its easy to say "we need less immigration". As shown by the Tories here, its much more difficult to deliver it. To reduce illegal immigration, for example, the government needs to create sufficient disincentives. The required deterrence policies would be fascist orientated.

    There's no realism in your argument. A left wing that just gives anti-immigration rhetoric is, at best, a little innocent
     

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