Will we have to fight fascism again? European elections suggest yes...

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by snakestretcher, May 26, 2014.

  1. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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  2. a sound mind

    a sound mind New Member

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    well, its not like they have won the elections, but it is very worrying indeed, i hope its just a result from discontent (like it usually has been in recent years in europe when the far right "impresses" at elections)

    thats just what i hope, i don't want to trivialize this, this needs to be addressed...
     
  3. Art_Allm

    Art_Allm Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Well, big ruling European parties support not only Israel (that is today ruled by the ideological followers of Begin who was called a Fascist by Einstein and other prominent intellectuals), they also support the ideological followers of Bndera in West Ukraine.

    As we see, the term "fascism" became just a buzz word, people do not believe that the ruling parties are against fascism, and they do not buy the official rhetoric any more.

    The voters just read the programmes of different parties and vote for the parties that promise to address their concerns.

    The big parties fail to do that, so the people vote smaller parties.

    BTW, there are no legal "fascist " parties in Europe, such parties are illegal, they are prohibited by law.

    The term "right" is relative, any right European party would be considered a liberal party in Israel.

    What to the right parties in the Ukraine - they would have been prohibited by law in any EU-country, but in the Ukraine these parties are supported by the Western governments.
     
  4. Fabien

    Fabien New Member

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    This time, Germany did not vote at all as you mentionned inhere about the rest of the EU.

    About France, it is very particular. I am mixed, half german, half french.

    The french are extrimily unsatisfied about the actual fear of having a downfall in economy. But as I know my people, they also refuse to change something easily.

    French people do not want to recognize that to work simply 35 hours per day and to get retirement money with 60 is not possible.

    France does need extreme changements in it's economical policy, but nobody wants to do them. Everybody is afraid of the angor of the citizn...

    That causes, that Le Pen, very simple messages has such sucseed:

    "Europe is guilty, the EU is responsible"

    She has a several favorite groups to be guilty:

    - the EU
    - the arabs
    - the export of Germany
    - the americans
    - homosexuals and, to these french almost the same:

    - the brits and their discusting food (sorry) A lot of french are convinced btw, that homosexuality is part of british mentality...you rember Cresson?

    Le Pen....

    Her father also mentionned the jews. Here, she is tactically more careful now.

    People are mainly simple mindet. So they chose, what is the less complicated way.

    It would be more complicate to change the economy , but....also more connected with pain....


    But I know my french people. In the end, they will be confinced. And Le Pen will lose. France is not a fascist country, neither other countries where you did vote for extreme right wing.

    Why did I tell you all that inhere:

    Germany has a excellent economy, is number two world wide now by immigrants to come and...has very very little right wing voters...

    So I think a fine economy will stop radical left or right wing parties the easiest way. But a fine economy is based on discipline ina lot of ways. It is difficult as a german, to explain that to others without beeing pointed out as....


    ...you know...

    Greets from Berlin. Europe will win. I am certain, no worries. Sans soucis
     
  5. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    It depresses me greatly when many people fall for the 'scapegoat' card dished out by the right-wing establishment parties and their media lackeys. The rightward political shift throughout Europe has been an ideological current that has been steadily growing over the last few decades. This in a large part is the result of the political fall-out emanating from austerity drives', the retrenchment of the public sector, the promotion of the role of the State as broker for big business interests, the deregulation of the financial sector and the consolidation of the mainstream media which reinforce these policies.

    It's the political appeal to humanities base instincts predicated mainly on fear - particularly the fear of the 'other' - that essentially results in the relative success of far-right political parties' throughout Europe. The far right subsequently feed on these 'populist' fears for their own nefarious ideological and political ends. It is no coincidence that the rise of the far-right coincides with the retreat in democracy. What we are currently witnessing is the rise in fascism but in a kind of slow motion.
     
  6. For Topical Use Only

    For Topical Use Only Well-Known Member

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    The extreme right anywhere are a marginalised voice. They sense their demise as a visceral reality and so redouble their efforts and gain (a little) more traction. We should be quite pleased that this extreme is popping up everywhere because it signals an inevitable, tragic end is in sight. Oh how my heart bleeds. :D It's a mistake to believe that an increase in far right rhetoric and voting habits is a harbinger for it's growth into anything particularly worrisome. The west is not about to be dragged into a 21st century far right dystopia.

    The same set of psychological rules apply to practically everything so we get the noisy tea party in the US, the noisy anti AGW proponents, the noisy white supremacists, the noisy anti gay adherents...and all the rest.

    These uppity, flailing, emotive noise-makers all signal decay and dissolution and nothing much else.
     
  7. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    I am not as complacent as you are. The point is, the far-right are increasingly becoming less marginalized. There is nothing 'inevitable' about the unfolding of history.
     
  8. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Really concerning. In Italy left has won [Socialists of Democrat Party], anyway some parties with clear orientation have collected a certain number of votes [a concerning number of votes] also here.

    Will we have to face fascism again?

    I'm afraid it will be the case.

    Where have I left my helmet?:salute:
     
  9. Natural Evidence

    Natural Evidence Member Past Donor

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    Politics and the Perliament can't have the power to resolve all problems in the nations.
     
  10. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Am I wrong to be wary of fascism and the rise of the far-right? History shows us we should be very wary.
     
  11. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Who, in your opinion, do I scapegoat? If you say "Jews" - which I suspect you will - then you are going to have to substantiate that.
     
  12. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any far right parties who are winning the elections in EU. Far right parties never win the elections. They come to the power illegally on the approval from oligarchs and political gamblers in order to supress any different opinion by a police state methods. Far right parties are never aimed at dissolution of state and gaining more power from the center. They aim at gaining more power. So EU far right would turn EU into a strong centralised state with huge army, strong immigration policy closed to any non-EUs. Far rights would take all the economic freedom from entreupreneurs and give maximum economic preferences to oligarchs and magnats. EU-far rights haven't appeared so far... But they will, judging on some europeans opinions they will appear the next electionss as opposition to those who are getting more popular now.

    I see that people of EU are not content with their EU bureacracy and they started to be sceptic about the future of EU. The challenges that EU have to face are too strong and difficult for those who got used to obey orders and not really is good in making their own policy. Next elections will not leave a place for current generation of politicians for sure. Europe will be shared by charismatic leaders and centers of power during the current european parliament. The pink and blue age is finished. Europeans can no longer afford themselves to be spoilt teenagers. They are fored to grow up. The first challenge for EU politicians will be as always survival and gaining freedom of decision-making. So far EU was just a supplement to US, but with US decline there is a chance to gain independence. All the current leaders are knee-deep in US secret agents' dirty underwear. Latest scandals show how exactly White House is stretching and pulling the leash for Olland-type politicians and what happens to those who decide to have their own game as Berluskoni-type. New politiians have new chance of staying clean. This is the only 'danger' I see. So far.

    But frankly speaking I don't think that EU has enough time before the war. This is however my personal opinion.
     
  13. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    So Hitler's National Socialists were tree-hugging hippies?.
     
  14. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    Why is a rise in far-right groups worrisome?

    I'm not certain I fully understand the recent elections and why they affect various governments. Weren't these election only to vote for delegates to the body of the EU?

    From what I read all over the web is that more and more Europeans are unhappy with the "tyranny from Brussels" and are seeking to remove the authority of that body. A movement to demonstrate against the influx of "foreigners" into their countries.

    Please explain. :salute:
     
  15. For Topical Use Only

    For Topical Use Only Well-Known Member

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    It's not complacency.

    It's more an understanding of how psychology works wrt the cramped and marginalised. Sometimes the cramped and marginalised ought not to be and that gives rise to a different set of psychological circumstances. In this case, though, it's the dying out-breath of old old order which will no longer work. The fear of it, too, is part of that dying out-breath and is a hangover from Hitlerian days of old. They won't be coming back, at least not in the form of far right ideology and authoritarianism. There's more to be concerned about with an authoritarian progressive movement, really, since that neo-liberal mindset has given us things like wars for corporate profit and a state which peers into every aspect of our once private lives and shows no sign of temperance.
     
  16. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    As I've said previously, the rise of the far-right is consistent with the decline of democracy. You seem to be under the impression that history is deterministic in that follows some kind of pre-ordained path. It doesn't. As such, like I said before, there is nothing inevitable about the lack of any prospect of another Hitler-figure coming to power again. On the contrary, despite the post-war assurances that the formation of a new post-war Europe would curtail such fascist ambitions, it seems logical to me that given the nature of capitalism, another Hitler-type figure coming to fruition within Europe is far from being out of the question. We need to be on our toes at all times.
     
  17. Csareo

    Csareo New Member

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    Why exactly would we "fight" the people's vote? I get it, people don't like radical ideologies, but Vietnam and Laos get along fine with the international community.

    Its not exactly like everything in fascism is wrong, like the attempts to achieve complete self sufficiency, but yeah, we don't really need to fight an outdated authoritarian philosophy.
     
  18. Rainbow Crow

    Rainbow Crow New Member Past Donor

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    The rise of the European far right has to do with two things...

    1. Labor parties trying to be like American Democrats (noble liars) instead of representing the white working class people those parties were created to represent.

    2. Mainstream conservatives lacking the courage to confront the left's "noble lies."

    We aren't living in the 1930's. The modern far right is a different animal than the far right of almost 100 years ago. People who confront it by comparing everyone to Hitler are going to lose. And they should lose :) Liberalism served its purpose as soon as racists were no longer making policy. The second that changed liberalism became a negative for the west.
     
  19. For Topical Use Only

    For Topical Use Only Well-Known Member

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    Sure, there's an inclination of the far right to rise in response to a decline in democratic sensibility but I think a few gains here and there isn't worth caring much about. I think history is something which has already occurred unless I missed a memo. I trust my fellow humans to not be so collectively dim as to allow another Hitler figure to emerge from the shadows in any meaningful way. I also don't think any lone figure can rise to prominence to anything like that degree again, it's just not feasible in this interconnected world we now have. That's not to suggest I disagree with maintaining a keen eye on it, I do agree. On the upside the presence of more far right morons milling around will provide some rich new material for comedians. :D
     
  20. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    Almost certainly, the rise of far-right parties is partly the result of what I term 'the democratic deficit' that exists at the core of liberal parliamentary democracies. I sense that people increasingly feel either apathetic or apoplectic with the system as it is because many of their voices are simply not being heard. Representative democracy is supposed to represent the democratic will of the mass of the population. Instead, at the behest of powerful political lobby groups who act on behalf of the giant corporations and the interests of big business, politician's are, it seems to me, increasingly by-passing their democratic responsibilities. The people themselves, in other words, have become kind of minor consideration in the pecking order of things.

    The only time politician's get a wake up call reminding them that we elect them to represent us - the many and not the few - is when they feel that their prospects for re-election are under threat. In a sense, we get the politician's we deserve. But in a broader sense, the democratic process itself has become increasingly dysfunctional over time. It cannot be right that the super-rich call the political shots largely at the expense of the interests pertaining to wider society.

    Economists describe the system in which we as the mass of the tax-paying public invariably pick up the tab for the mess to society caused by the economic imperatives associated with giant corporations and the political and socioeconomic ideology that underpins it, as "externalities." The system has been deliberately engineered in this way so that any costs to society - by way of, for example, environmental degradation, falling living standards, welfare retrenchment, mass outsourcing of public service provision and the public underwriting of loss-making private capital - is increasingly borne by us, the general public.

    In other words, what passes for democratic legitimacy in the West is - with the complicit legitimization of our elected representatives - increasingly becoming a 'tax revenues pot' to be looted by the rich. A classic example of this when we bailed out the losses incurred by the banksters. Another example relates to the issue the banking class euphemistically refer to as "quantiative easing". This means large sums of our money are pumped into the pockets of loss-making CEOs by way of huge bonuses.

    This is how it works: When they make huge profits these profits - in which they pay virtually no tax on - are privatized. When they make huge losses the said debts are underwritten by us through socialization. We lose out whatever. To add insult to injury, the rich exploit the benefits of low tax neoliberal economies' to ensure that the infrastructure we have paid for many times over through our taxes, get their workers to work on time.

    He who pays the piper calls the tune. That logic applies even when the politician's, the capitalist class and the system that represents them is literally destroying the very foundations upon which the said system rests. They continue on their path of destruction knowing the damage they are causing. Psychologists might reasonably refer to this as the action of a sociopath.

    Marx himself hit the nail on the head over 150 years ago when he referred to the actions of the ruling capitalist class as being akin to a bunch of warring brothers who create their own gravediggers. Marx's insights when analysing the capitalist system were as true then as they are now.
     
  21. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    No they were not. Facists were used by ruling classes of Germany to ourweigh german communists. Social democrats were losing grounds to these two powers and they had to bet on Hitler in order not to share power with communists... But Hitler never had majority before he really started to use state propaganda himself.
     
  22. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    There is really no reason to think *actual* far right is anything but politically dead in Europe.

    Of course, there are lots of dumb pundits who will try to label anyone who suggests that unregulated immigration is maybe not a good idea, or any other marginally non-PC stuff, as "far right". But thats complete nonsense.
     
  23. trout mask replica

    trout mask replica New Member

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    I agree with you that the hypothetical rise of another Hitler in Europe appears illogical given the sound reasoning of the kind you outlined. However, my point is that capitalism itself is an illogical system and what often flows from it can have a momentum all of its own. For instance, on the face of it, it seems illogical that the ruling capitalist class would want to persevere with a system that is inherently destructive. But persevere with it they do, even if it means potentially bringing all of us down with them.

    As I'm sure you are aware, the capitalist system has internal contradictions built into its very fabric. A real event metaphorical spark has the possibility to set off a seemingly uncontrollable chain of events that on the surface defies all logic. Remember, this was how the outbreak of WW1 happened which few people foresaw. I accept that given the increasingly globalized and interconnected world of today the chances of a repeat of this have been greatly reduced. But that ought not to detract from the fact that this eventuality still remains a real possibility, particularly as vast swaths of the world is in a state of crisis.
     
  24. dreamin'gal

    dreamin'gal New Member

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    The politics of mordern western society is like a pendulum, from left to right, from right to left. The pole of left is the start of right, and vice versa.

    I guess the people who vote for far-right parties may not equal to support fascism, they may just think that the far-right parties can more represent their own benefit.
    maybe they are just work for different intetest groups behind them, but not the average European who vote for them

    No matter left or right:( this is an old problem of democracy.
     
  25. dreamin'gal

    dreamin'gal New Member

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    the capitalist system has internal contradictions built into its very fabric. <---agree so much

    But it seems that this is the only way we can live =_=
     

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