What is the purpose of a national education curriculum?

Discussion in 'Education' started by spt5, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. spt5

    spt5 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think that the purpose of any national education is aggressive indoctrination. This was invented in the French revolution, to take away the Church's advantage, and to manufacture uniformed borgs who all speak the same thing, preferably on the same language. Is it a part of asset and wealth redistribution? Your thoughts?
     
  2. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2013
    Messages:
    2,548
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    0

    My thoughts?

    I think you're confusing a science fiction television series with the real world.
     
  3. TexMexChef

    TexMexChef Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    503
    Trophy Points:
    83
    What are you advocating? That each state create their own standards for Math, Science, and Language?
    What is the difference in state indoctrination versus federal indoctrination...?
     
  4. Texan

    Texan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2014
    Messages:
    9,126
    Likes Received:
    4,696
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As far as I know, all 57(ha ha) states have their own curriculum. On top of this, there is a national curriculum. All government services should be as close to the individual as possible. The 10th Amendment is completely ignored and the Department of Education is a prime example. The states that do education better will have an advantage and the other states will follow their lead. The lackluster Federal involvement muddles the comparisons.
     
    Steady Pie and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,488
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Common Core is pushed by this Administration. Never been tested, never discussed, never legislated, rolled out to the country. Now States are pushing back.
     
  6. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    24,711
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm in favor of it; the religious organizations need to keep their viewpoints within their houses of worship and the homes of the pious. Two things divide men in this world; politics and religion.
     
  7. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    27,293
    Likes Received:
    4,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The real purpose, IMHO, would be so that students who move while in school have a better chance of success. When I was in between 4th and 5th grade, my family moved. It took me a long time to get over the academic differences. My 4th grade school taught certain concepts related to long division in the 5th grade, so I didn't learn it in 4th grade. My 5th grade school taught those concepts in the 4th grade. Took me about 6 months to get caught up, and I was a gifted student, not an average or below average student. It makes sense to teach the basic concepts at the same time nationally.
     
  8. AR4137

    AR4137 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A certain level of federal involvement is necessary. Kids should be able to reach certain standards in math/English/whatever regardless of their state. Kids don't always remain in their home states, especially for college...I was astounded to meet kids who were only in basic algebra or geometry classes in their first year, when most kids from my high school had finished both subjects in their freshman or sophomore years of high school!

    The only problem is that the curriculum standards we have now are too focused on memorization of facts and ideas...teaching to the test, without attempting to develop critical thinking skills or formulate creative thinking in students. Kids memorize math formulas without knowing how to apply them, or get credit for reading Sparknotes/Cliffnotes instead of analyzing books properly. No one stops to ask the "why" or "how" in science and history...the only requirement for success is to remember the basics until the exam, and then all of that information can be forgotten.

    Common Core was an attempt to encourage critical thinking, but let's face it, that's a joke. The idea was there, but not the method- it takes on more of a "run before you can crawl" approach to teaching by expecting students to work backwards to understand the material.

    However, the states do need to have enough flexibility to teach subjects relevant to their needs. They're all different. It's that simple. Learn the history, literature, culture of each state (because they're all unique, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not), allocate funding to schools as needed, host additional educational programs if possible/relevant.

    Sorry if that got lengthy. In summary, I'm somewhat more in favor of a set national curriculum as long as 1) there's enough "wiggle room" for state-specific educational needs, 2) It focuses more on critical thinking and analysis than memorization and standardized testing, and 3) it's not Common Core.
     
  9. spt5

    spt5 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    But isn't it school where most/all of the liberal garbage is power-compacted into my head? By eagerly aggressive teachers?
     
  10. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    27,293
    Likes Received:
    4,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Please tell me what about Common Core Standards that you disagree with. I agree that the method of creating Common Core was not exactly the way to do things, and I don't like that, pretty much states were forced to go to Common Core to get out of NCLB standards, but the actual Common Core Standards aren't bad. (yes, there is a lot of bad material labeled as Common Core, but that's implementation, not the actual standards).

    http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/
     
  11. AR4137

    AR4137 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That was more of what I meant, actually. The implementation. The standards themselves seem alright- though I'm not sure if they're rigorous enough, but that's just me- the question is how we can get students to reach them. CC introduces more than just standards, but very specific ideas about how they should be met and how teachers should teach them.

    Part of the problem is that it doesn't allow students to reach conclusions in their own way...I'm not too sure about English, because as far as I'm concerned, the English classes taught in my school district were a joke to begin with, but I know a bit about the approaches to math problems. Basic elementary level math is drawn out and made out to be more complicated than it really is. Advanced math seems to encourage students to work backwards, which is fine, except CC doesn't offer any of the building blocks to do so

    From what I understand, students are expected to pretty much teach themselves the material. Most of the teachers I've talked to and heard about are there to guide students, but not spoon-feed the material. That much makes sense...but it seems to some teachers that this means they can just hand all the material off to students and not actually teach. Kids- especially younger elementary school kids- can't just piece together a jigsaw puzzle without knowing what the pieces are first.

    Not only that, but kids learn differently. You can't just hand students a problem, and expect them to all come to a conclusion in the exact same manner (and then fail them if they get the answer right, but use the wrong method). That's not the point of an education. At all.

    I often tutor kids from my old high school when I'm back in town during breaks. All of them have complained that their teachers wouldn't help them because they were supposed to "figure it out themselves." My younger sister was even in tears over her English and Algebra II homework...even with the same teachers that I had in high school, most students were struggling. Actually, only one student (out of around 200) passed the Algebra II final exam from my sister's school. They had to curve it so everyone else could pass the class. Same teachers, same subject- whole new teaching method.

    It also irks me that CC is all just one big experiment. They're toying around with the quality of education for thousands of kids across the country. They are the guinea pigs, and they're going to be the ones who suffer if it doesn't pan out. I'm just glad my sister will be graduating soon enough.

    The basic standards are fine. In my opinion, they could be a bit harder, but that's just me. And I'm very aware that I'm not qualified to really criticize them- I'm not a qualified teacher, nor am I even directly impacted by CC. If CC actually pays off in a decade or so, I'll be more than happy to admit that I was wrong. But they've been around for a couple of years, and I've yet to hear anything positive. Plus, from an outsider's point of view, it just doesn't make any sense, but again, maybe that's just me.

    Sorry for rambling. This got to be a bit more lengthy than I intended.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    27,293
    Likes Received:
    4,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Show me, from the standards. I think you are talking about some of the programs devised by textbook publishers in the name of common core, not the actual standards. Please show me in the standards from the linked site the "very specific ideas about how they should be met and how teachers should teach them." The link to the standards is below.
    http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

    Show me from the standards.
    http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

    Again, show me from the standards.
    http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

    Again, show me in the standards.
    http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

    All teaching is an experiment. No one method works for all students or all subject matter. Most teachers are experimenting all the time regardless of the curriculum.

    The thing is, you are blaming the implementation of the standards on the standards. The standards themselves don't say a whole lot about how to teach it, etc.

    http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/
     
  13. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I haven't looked in the past year, but last time I checked the Department of Education website, I could not find a mission statement or goals for the public education system.

    If we can't define our mission/goals, how is it possible to design and maintain an efficient and effective public education system?

    Today a kid is either lucky or screwed depending on where they are born and live, with public schools ranging from poor to great, and this is wrong!
     
  14. Tommy Palven

    Tommy Palven Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,560
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
  15. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    What are schools indoctrinating children with? Science? Math? Reading? Writing? What?

    Now if you had said, "I think that the purpose of most university education is aggressive indoctrination." I would agree with you.
     
  16. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Our Mission

    California will provide a world-class education for all students, from early childhood to adulthood. The Department of Education serves our state by innovating and collaborating with educators, schools, parents, and community partners. Together, as a team, we prepare students to live, work, and thrive in a highly connected world.


    http://www.cde.ca.gov/index.asp
     
  17. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/index.asp
     
  18. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    No... that is a child's home life. Most children end up with the same political affiliation as their parents... not their teachers.
     
  19. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    27,293
    Likes Received:
    4,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Apples and oranges comparison. It's one thing to teach motivated people on their own time, like Khan. It's another to have to run a classroom of 25 students, half of whom don't care.
     
  20. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was speaking about the federal government who determines public education guidelines.

    Obviously all public education in CA 'is not' world class.
    Obviously it does not fully involve 'all' students.

    There are no metrics to measure whether or not CA meets, exceeds or fails it's Mission/goals...so this makes it a bit meaningless IMO.

    From 2007 through 2011 the high school graduation rate was 76%...this cannot be considered 'world class'?
     
  21. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    There are problems that educators can not nor should not have to deal with that they are not only having to deal with but are getting blamed for. Seems like you are falling into the same trap. The United States deals with issues that almost no other nation has to deal with. When looking at graduation rates one must really compare socio-economic levels and not a nation as a whole.
     
  22. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sorry...but when we know there are 'socio-economic levels' and other societal issues facing kids of school age, then it is our responsibility to create a public education system which works for all kids...not some kids! If a kid is born into poverty or a ghetto, if we allow this to determine that kid's chance to obtain an education, then WE are the failures...
     
  23. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    That is not what I said. You can't compare our huge low socio-economic group filled with immigrants that don't even speak English with a homogenous higher socio-economic group of single language learners from Sweden, Finland, Singapore, etc.
     
  24. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well...you stated "When looking at graduation rates one must really compare socio-economic levels and not a nation as a whole."

    All kids cannot live in the identical socio-economic situations, therefore, a public education system must be designed to accommodate this diversity.

    Who cares who succeeds and who does not? The root issue is making sure every single kid has an equal opportunity to achieve public education. All the variables that we know which exist in our society, instead of being ignored, they must be taken into consideration when designing a public education system.

    And, no matter how efficient and effective the education system might be, we will still have failures...this is a given!
     
  25. BodiSatva

    BodiSatva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    All I can say is try teaching in an inner city for a few years and then teach in a more affluent area and THEN go and teach in another country like I have and then you will have an idea of what I am talking about.
     

Share This Page