The Holocaust Question, Pre WW2 Germany, and the Horrific Fate of Post WW2 Germans

I've come across some pre World War 2...pieces of information...that I am having a hard time trying to digest. Some of them I can become some of them are well-known.

The economic situation in Germany was deplorable- a condition set into place by the victors of WW1. Debt was massive, industry evaporated, and it was said to be the center of vice and smut and moral corruption.

On the other hand, Hitler came in and turned this around and the exact how is what I wonder about. One cannot glean this information from the popular media documentaries and I caution people against them. They are misleading. But what I encountered was that Hitler, was, indeed, worshipped all over the world (or at least the Euro-American states) as a brilliant and remarkable leader.

This took me aback, obviously, because he is a monster. That's what we have been told. But...we know that he was only a monster right up until the war. Now this is a case of going from hero to monster almost overnight and it screams of the kind of bi-polar shift in public sentiment accomplished with propaganda. But I did not leap to this conclusion because I still cannot redress the accusations laid at the feet of this man. However, I did see that he was the charm of many powerful people in government, business, and industry. A nation as broken as Germany had become the toast of Europe, again, so to speak. The British, as well, were close friends with them until they were not. The Catholic Church endorsed him. This man was a hero.

So I tried to apply this objectively. Propaganda works both ways and recently, we had Obama, who was heralded like the second coming in 2008 and not only drew the support of many Americans, but the entire world. At that moment, I don't think support for American potential was ever more highly reflected in all the world. But...we came to find out that it was largely a false image and whatever Obama is, he is not half the man he claimed to be. Aside from a few piecemeal things like Gay Rights, and a controversial Affordable Care Act, he hasn't done much in the way of domestic and international progression of humanitarian values and an enlightened elevation of ideals. He's proven to be as deeply imperialistic and self-serving as his predecessors and some would argue more.

But...Hitler did provide real-time changes to Germany- transforming it from a glorified ghetto to a nation capable of challenging the power of the entire European Imperial Hierarchy near single-handedly. How? Well, this is speculation, but i am assuming that with all the favoritism by European and American elites came funding and loans and such. Where else did the money come from? This question I must seek to answer later, but it is about now that I truly wish to gain an understanding of life before the outbreak of war because I feel that things might not add up as neatly and, of course, will have consequences on the traditional view of WW2 as a whole.

Of course, I come to the point of the Jewish question. Exactly what happened? I ask myself this because I have just been looking up all those people who not only challenged the Holocaust narrative, but have been hunted down and suppressed for it. And it's not only that, but we also have the second Holocaust of German soldiers and citizens after WW2. This is something that is not mentioned at all. The Bolshevik's of the East. While being led by Stalin, it is known that they were primarily Jewish and utterly brutal. This is not mentioned at all.

So many people ask why do I question these things. It's because I've never really been the type to make emotional arguments, and I know an emotional argument when I see one. I debate religion a lot, and you see the very same thing. You reach a point where the person you are debating simply says that their beliefs are there’s because they are and to pry further begins to feel like an assault on this person because they are emotionally connected to this belief. The Holocaust has become an extremely emotional topic that is guarded by quite real legal barbed wire. People in Europe and Israel can be sentenced to jail time and fines for merely questioning the period...and there are many good questions to be asked about the Holocaust as their are pre-WW2 Germany and decades before or after that period. History is always questioned the same way science is. No one says you cannot question whether gravity exists, they say you must present your argument conclusively. But, in regards to the Holocaust, you are not allowed to make an argument, or even question the finding.

I've begun to seriously reconsider and to explore the Holocaust deniers. Not the baseless, raving ones, but the actual, intellectual, methodical ones who present a well-formed and concise case point for point. I also encourage the study of post war Germany and the apparent fate of many German soldiers and citizens.

So there is my beliefs and I have honestly formed no argument because I am in the process of actually gaining information. However, if there are any people who think like me and either have points of reference the wish to submit, articles or persons or books that they wish to be made known, or any information regarding this point in history, I would love to have the conversation, or accept the information.

In ways, this may be one of the ultimate debates. A debates people do not have the freedom to have in other countries. And perhaps, if things persist, we may no longer have the freedom here, in the US.

I look forward to the debate from all and any sides, as well as all help and participation in recreating this time period, brick to brick, and providing us an example as to how we come to call one of the most muderous wars in human history "the Good War".

 

What is it you wish to debate?

 

This is the strain of humans we attempted to genocide at the behest of banks...

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=989&bih=553#imgdii=_&imgrc=_

 

I'm not clear how the recognised competence of Hitler as a peacetime (and wartime for that matter, to a point) leader leads to consideration of Holocaust deniers. Indeed, the force of unity Hitler enabled among the German people (and Nazi's in particular) is one of the things that make the Holocaust viable.

The fact the horrors committed by the Nazi's gets so much more attention than those committed by the Allies is hardly surprising and not something exclusive to WW2. History is written by the winners and all that. Again, that there were atrocities committed by others doesn't do anything to question those committed by the Nazi's, it is just more evidence that human beings are truly capable of such horrific acts.

 

I am surprised you have not included the famous Times magazine "Man of the Year 1938"

I think you first need to consider just what a remarkable race the Germans are. We get a lot of German tourist's in this part of the Cornwall, and I end up talking to them. To a man and women they are highly educated, highly motivated, have a superb work ethic and sense of social responsibility. My father was an engineer and I was an engineer, the quality of their design and execution are excellent. I would go so far as to say they are the best in the world.

Before WW1 they had a very Socialist government (foreign policy was the sole responsibility of the Kaiser). Their welfare and education system were very well developed , Germany was by many to be considered the scientific and intellectual head of Europe.

Since WW2 they have suffered from a country torn in two and then brought together again. Their country was literally obliterated and yet in 60 years they have managed to get to the position where their economy dominates Europe. No mean feet especially when the Germans were pretty much hated by the rest of Europe. Of course this was all achieved without a Hitler like figure.

So what I am suggesting is that to understand the economic "miracles" Hitler achieved, you need to understand the caliber of the people he had to achieve it with.

 

you should definitely read some better history books.

the rise of Hitler is well documented. From his early roots thru his political activism to his attainment and consolidation of power.

I don't think there is any question that he was a machievellian genius. But Germany's economic recovery was directed by Schacht, not hitler. (Adolph being smart enough at the time to let the experts deal with it).

As to the treatment of Germans at the end of the war, what exactly were you suprised about? Hatred and revenge were inevitable and uncontrollable, however, I believe that for the Russians it was unofficial policy to rampage thru german populace. Makes for quite the cowed and controllable masses.

You totally mischaracterize the anti-denial laws in various countries. Questioning the holocaust narrative is one thing and in fact over the decades the narrative has been under continual revision. Denying that it ever took place is something entirely different. That nazi-apologism is a particular crime is unsurprising. Your contention that people in some countries cannot debate the events of ww2 or the holocaust is specious. Of course one can debate it.

What can't be done in those countries is do what Weber, Zundel, Rudolph, Krege, Butz, Faurisson, Campognolo, and the rest have been attempting to do. And that is to deny that there was a deliberate attempt to exterminate the Jews, Rom and handicapped, that there were no gassings, and that it is nothing more than yet another jewish moneygrabbing conspiracy. That kind of crap is unsurprisingly not going to be tolerated in the nations that suffered so harshly from the results.

There are HUNDREDS of books, forensics, reseach papers, document archives, eyewitness testimonies, court proceedings, etc. that address these issues.

there are a handful of pretty crappy books, lots of equally crappy "papers", some outrageouly inept forensic analysis, lots of lies and misrepresentations etc on the denial side.

have fun "gathering and analyzing" information to engage in debate. Except that it isn't really a debate when it comes to denialists as they refuse to accept hared evidence and continuously spout repeatedly and emphatically debunked garbage.

I would strongly recommend you view Mr. Death, the life and times of Fred Leuchter, the "execution expert" that Zundel hired to prove there were no gas chambers. If after viewing it you can still say that this "scientific" foundation of denialism is anything more than a sick inept joke, then you will be able to conclude the "debate" yourself.

 

There's too much documented evidence - supplied by the Nazis themselves - to ever seriously entertain any Holocaust denial. As for Hitler's pre-war stand, he was seen as hero or monster relative to one's own place in the spectrum: most conservatives thought one way, liberals and leftists another. Although some on the left conceded he was a force for "national liberation," while some on the right thought he was a lowlife with no place in "society." If it hadn't been for the war - admittedly a BIG if - Hitler would have been seen as a "normal" dictator and gotten away with everything he did within Germany. Like most serial lawbreakers, he was his own worst enemy.

 

Adolph Hitler - The WASP's bogeyman!

Even more than in Jewish society, Hitler is the ever-living avatar of evil for the anglo people. Why? same reason for which Napoleon Bonaparte as one too: He was threatening the Imperials. And he was not Anglo. And he failed.

If Hitler had one, you would see its regime today turning the Holocaust into some "us or them" tragic decision that reasonable people were forced to take, like with the atom bombs or the elimination of Palestine.

If fact, Hitler was fought by monsters who were about as ugly as him - people like Stalin or Churchill.

 

Here's a thread I started on the subject.
http://www.alien-ufos.com/conspirac...aust-deniers-really-holocaust-minimizers.html
alien-ufos (dot) com/conspiracy-theories/64122-holocaust-deniers-really-holocaust-minimizers (dot) html

Sorry for not just posting the info; it would take a long time to click on every link and copy and paste them one at a time.

There's info on the Holocaust in post #1 and on pre-WW2 Germany in post #2.

 

The German economy during the pre WW2 Third Reich was in a shambles, it was just hidden. The government was borrowing massive amounts of money. Off the top of my head in one of those years, and this wasn't abnormal, they took in 15b RM in taxes and spent over 60b RM. However, by accounting trickery they made it seem like they were spending a lot less and had more money coming in. They hid unemployment numbers by basically just lying about how many people were unemployed, sticking the long term unemployed in concentration camps as being enemies of the states (where they wouldn't count towards the numbers), etc.

All of this was not sustainable. Why then did they do it? Hitler WANTED war. His aim was to build a strong military (and that was expensive) and then conquer the lands to the east of Germany. The people living there would be culled and the survivors turned into slaves everything not nailed down stolen. The first thing the Germans did when they conquered a city was to raid its banks and other places that would hold treasures.

Hitler's pre WW2 "economic miracles" can't be divorced from the horrors of WW2 because the two are one and the same.

As to the Holocaust. There are documents on it. Himmler even mentioned it in his diary. Those tried for it never denied it, they claimed that it was their right as the victors to do what they wished, but funnily enough claimed that the Allies had no right to try them.

 

Since I'm a historian and I did much of my research exactly in that field, I can tell you that it is hard to find evidence of Hitler doing anything witch would be smart. Many people use the hyper-inflation after WW1 as an example of how the economy crashed, when in reality the hyperinflation was created to pay for the reparations of WW1 since Germany had to repay them in their own currency. Once the Britain and France said that Germany had to repay in gold and not in "Reichsmark" the hyper-inflation stopped.

Hitlers economic rise in the 30s is simply due to the fact that he was spending money like a crazy person. He got as much money loaned as he could and he went through all the reserves Germany had. If Germany hadn't conquered Austria and Czechoslovakia before 1939 the war would have started a year earlier as they run out of money. The only reason the war started in 1939 is because Austrian and Czech reserves covered one more year of Hitler spending money like a crazy person.

Same would happen in any country. If Obama triples the government spending the economy would recover until the US uses up all reserves and all the money they can get loaned.

The "crazy" of Hitler you can see before WW2 already with his niece, who killed herself just to get away from him. Whether he sexually abused her or not is still debated.

 

I wonder why you bailed out on this thread.

 

According to my reading on military history, most German POWs were perished in Soviet camps and up to 400,000 Germans died of starvation and diseases in captivity because the Soviets did not have enough food to feed them all. But the story of Eisenhower's holocaust on German POWs disseminated by revisionist sites is completely fictitious and most of them were engaging in forced labour in the UK and the US at POW camps during the war. German POWs were treated fairly well by the Allies with some recreational and educational activities, strictly abiding by the Geneva Convention of 1929.


German POWs in their mess hall on Camp Robinson Photo from the AR History Commission

 

If you mean the long absence, it was because my computer was taken to the shop for 2 weeks.

If you have anything you wish to discus,, feel free to post it.

 

Oh yes.. Hitler wanted to "restore Germania".

 

There have been numerous responses to your OP- why are you not taking part in the conversation?

 

You should re-examine the plight of German POWs after the war. Seems a lot of them starved.

 

Why do you think?

Obviously Uppy is out of his depth. Denialists regularly use the ol' "While researching" ploy to repeatedly raise such nazi apologist stupidity.

 

German POWs in the US were treated ridiculously well. German POWS in Russia were largely exterminated. German POWs in Germany faced the same problems the entire German nation faced- starvation- there just wasnt' enough food- the infrastructure no longer existed to get it to them.

 

I already said my computer was in the shop for 2 weeks. Just got it back about two days ago.

Aside from that, the Forum isn't really that much of a priority to me.

 

Holocaust deniers are either evil, ignorant or stupid.

 

The decisions after WWI set up Germany and Hitler was a hero to the German people and even Time's Man of the Year in 1934 I believe. Many people did not take his rhetoric about Jews very seriously or just ignored it because he did make things better. In a letter to my mother from Paris, her friend raved about Hitler in the 30's.

Hitler was a sick individual and not really that smart and what he did will never be forgotten and should not be. The numbers which people argue about are not as important as the intent. They were as brutal as the current ISIS.

The Russians were brutal too and imprisoned and executed many Germans after the war but Germany had no compunctions killing Russians during the war.

 

I am well aware of how POWs were treated by all sides in WW2.

There was considerably more starvation, disease and forced labor amongst the Western allies' German POWs in Germany at war's end than the general population.

 

Feel free to provide some resources then- because I am not aware of anything more than the rather desperate plight of the Germans after the war was over, and would be glad to learn more.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany

After the German surrender the U.S. chose to designate large numbers of German prisoners as Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF) instead of using the Prisoner of War status under which the captives would have been under the protection of the Geneva convention[3] and, therefore, would have been entitled to the same quantities of food as U.S. troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager#Conditions_and_death_rates