NHS Charges for Migrants

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Pro-Consul, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28291276
    It's a step in the right direction but really should have been there before. And needs to be extended to EU migrants as well.
     
  2. Toefoot

    Toefoot Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I read it is projected that NHS will be in a 47 billion deficit by 2020. That is a huge sum for a 1 line entry. I also read that NHS is flying in Doctors from India to get more bang for the buck.

    How does British doctors and citizens feel about bringing in outside help?

     
  3. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Well that's no surprise.
    Well it appears to me that the NHS is under enormous strain due to a decrease in funding and fewer doctors wanting to go with the NHS and I suspect that the over-management doesn't help either.
    Which explains why they're recruiting overseas
    Well generally speaking Brits aren't that fussy as long as the Doctor in question is actually competent.
    As for the medical view well I don't know enough doctors to make an assessment of their views on the subject.

    The thing is with the overseas doctors is that they aren't always as competent as British trained doctors and of of course that brings with it certain risks.

    As a personal example I went in to see a specialist about my jaw and of course I told him when I started getting the symptoms and what they were and within five minutes he told me it was nothing to worry about.
    This particular doctor was not from Britain.
    However when I was living in New Zealand my dentist correctly diagnosed the problem.
    Now this condition of mine if left untreated for roughly 10 years would have meant that I would have arthritis of the jaw.
    I saw the NHS doctor within the sixth year of my condition.

    I still think that the NHS is fundamentally a good thing but it really does come down to the issue of money.
     
  4. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    I can't imagine where the money's going.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Over-management.
    That's £166M that could have gone towards training more staff.

    Medical administration should be in the hands of actual doctors rather than career bureaucrats.
     
  6. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    It makes sense to charge extra but a 50% mark up seems steep.

    May just send non eu patients into private healthcare.
     
  7. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Well I agree that 50% is a somewhat questionable mark up.
    But at least it will make people think twice about taking the micky out of British public services.

    And if people really want private healthcare then there's tons of practices that they can go to.

    I still think that we should extend it to EU citizens as well.
     
  8. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    If you don't like the rules of the common market you can lobby for changes or leave.

    EU migrants are only entitled to services if they are resident. If not emergency care only. Healthcare tourism is more an issue of private paying patients. Also in very limited numbers people with complex cases seeking very particular expertise often paid for by insurance companies or their own government.

    I know a girl, a paraplegic who had regular treatment in a French clinic paid for by the HSE. At the time we did
    not have rehabilitation facilities for children with spinal injuries.
     
  9. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Yes I know. I said that knowing that it's likely that Britain would leave the EU in the future.
    It doesn't take that long for EU migrants to gain access. A matter of a few months actually.
    Then they don't need to make use of the NHS then do they?
    I'm glad that she's been treated but non citizens shouldn't be our responsibility unless they're willing to pay.
     
  10. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    I think the odds of the UK leaving are miniscule, but that is a conversation for a different thread.

    And that is reciprocated across the EU when Britons live and work in other countries. They like everyone else pay their taxes.

    Not the NHS persay but specialists who have knowledge of very rare diseases and conditions. They are treated in NHS hospitals and the cost is reimbursed by the insurer or government.

    And she was treated in another EU country paid for by our government. Which is healthcare tourism and is not in anyway detrimental to the French system.
     
  11. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/24/medical-tourism-generates-millions-nhs-health

    And while the study finds 1.4 bn of non paying medical tourism, it includes those who study or work in the UK which is not really to say that they are coming the UK to use the healthcare but come to work or study, and pay taxes or fees while they are in the UK. That's not gaming the system.
     
  12. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...s-health-tourism-really-cost-nhs-its-not-£2bn

    This report cites a study putting

    Of course it is ludicrous that you should plan to arrive in a country and plan to use their healthcare system to deliver your baby and expect not to contribute anything to the cost. It is wrong and those suspected of it should be pursued but it seems like a tiny part of the Health services problem not an overwhelming strain.
     
  13. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    That's fair. No need to get sidetracked.
    And how many Britons are actually in other EU nations working in comparison to those who aren't British citizens in the UK?
    Even if it's reciprocated; it's the amount of people that makes the difference.
    And considering that the EU levies it's membership based upon the each nations GDP rather than the actual costs of all European public services means that it's not of equal value.
    Ok but I wasn't saying that people should be denied service. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be free and even so I'd still expect emergency treatment to be issued.
    Well that's fine.
    As I've said I don't object to people coming in to use the NHS but I object to it being free for non-citizens.
     
  14. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    In fact the numbers balance. There are nearly 2 million British migrants living in the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html

    Watch "Costa del Crime" about the Costa del Sol in the South of Spain, and the benefit-scrounging ex-pat Brits are there among the drunken foreigners the Spanish police are dealing with.

    The biggest problem with foreigners gaining undeserved free care is the fact that it's free (at the point of use) care mens that the mechanism for collecting payment is largely not there. Drs and nurses provide care and treatment, not bills. It's foreign to the system, if you'll forgive the pun.
     
  15. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    No they don't.
    Because each nation contributes according to their GDP.
    The only way that would be relevant is if each EU nation had the same currency as well as pricing and the same GDP per capita.
    So for example Bulgaria contributes less to the EU than Britain. And therefore cannot be said to fairly contribute to the cost of healthcare to Bulgarians living in the UK.
    In fact they are a receiver of EU monies and not a net contributor.
    And this relates how exactly?

    I've said that.
    And to make it clear. I don't believe that it's fair for non-citizens to use the NHS irrespective of whether they are from the EU or not unless they pay.
     
  16. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Abolish the NHS. Problem solved.
     
  17. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    That's pretty funny but that would ultimately create more problems than it would solve.
     
  18. munter

    munter New Member

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    oh yes of course, why don't we just copy the US system and sling people out onto the streets, way to go...:rolleyes:

    and a 150% mark up is perfectly reasonalbe, go for medical care in the 3rd World as a white person and you'll be paying up to 2000% the rate of a local!
     
  19. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nah the US system is rife with problems too. The ACA, medicare, medicaid, treatment at the ER, various medical entitlements, disability, it all needs to be abolished.

    People are not entitled to the labor of others. If you can't fix your own health, or convince someone else to do it for you - then you die. Pretty simple.
     
  20. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Of course there are problems in any institution. That's just the nature of humans; not perfect.
    And I'd rather have the NHS than the US medical system as it's considerably worse.

    Really? So what happens if you need surgery, do you do it yourself?

    Or for that matter should you make use of the internet considering the services that are required to keep it going?
    The thousands of man-hours required to lay ocean spanning cables or the maintenance required for those lines as well as companies that deliver it to people.
    I mean all that is a service.

    The fact is you cannot rely upon yourself all the time nor can you rely upon the charity of others.
    In my view people are entitled to other peoples labour.
     
  21. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Worse at fulfilling your preferences, not necessarily mine. I have no desire to save lives at any cost. I value keeping my tax dollars more than I do free/subsidized care.

    Since I have very little knowledge of anatomy and none of surgery - no, I don't do it myself. I go out, find a surgeon willing to provide me with the service for an agreed fee, and enjoy the morphine afterwards. My objection is not to healthcare, it's to funding healthcare via taxation or other involuntary methods.

    A service myself and my ISP agreed on. I purchased their labor and resources for an agreed upon sum. Again, I have no objection to voluntary association, quite the opposite.

    The internet is a little more complicated due to government involvement in laying the cables (and thus I am indirectly the beneficiary of involuntary taxation) - but I have little issue with this. I am a student working part time and have roughly 15% of my pay docked for taxation. Of course there are other taxes and fees, but we'll concentrate on this for the time being. I intend to recuperate these funds in any way possible. Filing a decent tax return is a good start, but I have no objection to seizing my assets back through state services. Until I reach the amount of taxation I paid I am merely recuperating my losses. Ergo, I have no problem with using the government's telecommunications infrastructure.

    I do not suggest relying on yourself all the time - just that when you interact with others you treat them as the individuals they are rather than cash cows to be milked by the public purse. Of course charity is not always going to be sufficient to meet the needs of the suffering, that doesn't mean that if I fall into such a situation I must support theft, either by myself or the state.


    A fair opinion, but one I do not share.

    Oh, and if you could in future quote my name as well, otherwise I'm not alerted that you've responded to me. Thanks :)
     
  22. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    So in your view people are expendable is that it?
    That doesn't seem in keeping with your previous statement
    I keep coming across Americans who keep using this term when it seems to me they mean trade.
    But as I said it doesn't seem to fit with your previous statement.
    Because it seems to me that nobody should use other people for the life saving services that they need.
    You said that people are not entitled to the labour of others. So why are using the internet? After all it's a service, not a product.
    So what happens when you have no home, no money, no job? In fact if it was just you what would you do?
    Yeah I do that anyway.
    Then you kind of risk starving to death.
    Fair enough. I'm willing to respect anybody's opinion within reason of course.
    As you wish.
     
  23. munter

    munter New Member

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    So you want your own country to copy the practices of the 3rd World - how the heck can you call that progress?
     
  24. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The direction progress takes is in the eye of the beholder. I want my country to copy the practices of the 3rd world on dragnet mass surveillance as well, sometimes the best option is inaction.
     

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