Framing Israel for the War

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by HBendor, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Here is another <pragmatic point of view on Gaza> that the readers of this Forum must investigate and compare with the disseminators of evil... Israel has done what other armies in the war have not even considered when it comes to combat. HB

    Framing Israel for the War
    Featured Media Critiques2 hours ago

    It was only a matter of time before the “blame Israel” brigades began to find their way to the mainstream press to assert that, all evidence to the contrary, it was Israel that started the current war in Gaza.

    The first shot at framing Israel for the war was launched in the New York Times last week. Nathan Thrall from the International Crisis Group claimed that the “most immediate cause” of the war was being ignored.

    According to Thrall, it was not the kidnapping of three Israeli teens or the daily barrages of rockets threatening millions of Israeli civilians that brought about this war. Rather, it was the fact that Israel refused to accept the Palestinian unity government that included Hamas.

    Now, noted Israel critic Henry Siegman comes along to build on Thrall’s arguments in a new article in Politico. Lest anyone be confused about Seigman’s intentions, the title of the piece, Israel Provoked This War, serves as a succinct summary of what follows.

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    Siegman contorts in every direction to blame Israel for the violence, even dragging in statements from Israelis about the 2009 clash between Israel and Hamas:

    The notion that it was Israel, not Hamas, that violated a cease-fire agreement will undoubtedly offend a wide swath of Israel supporters. To point out that it is not the first time Israel has done so will offend them even more deeply. But it was Shmuel Zakai, a retired brigadier general and former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division, and not “leftist” critics, who said about the Israel Gaza war of 2009 that during the six-month period of a truce then in place, Israel made a central error “by failing to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians in the [Gaza] Strip. … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they are in and expect Hamas just to sit around and do nothing.”

    This is true of the latest cease-fire as well. According to Thrall, Hamas is now seeking through violence what it should have obtained through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. “Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets.” It is not only Hamas supporters, but many Gazans, perhaps a majority, who believe it is worth paying a heavy price to change a disastrous status quo.
    Both Thrall and Siegman insist that Hamas was willing to live up to international conditions to renounce violence, recognize Israel, and accede to past agreements. But there is no basis for their supreme confidence in Hamas. In fact, there was no act of disarming and no statements of recognizing Israel.

    Had Hamas been sincere in seeking “a peaceful handover of responsibilities,” they could have made a grand show of removing their missiles. It would have built confidence and forced Israel’s hand.

    Instead, three Israeli teens were brutally murdered by Palestinians associated with Hamas. And after the shocking reprisal murder of an Arab boy in Israel, when Israel’s operations in the West Bank were coming to an end and public support was shifting away from an operation in Gaza, Hamas dramatically increased the number of rockets fired at Israel, forcing the IDF to take action.

    But the kidnapping is barely mentioned in Siegman’s article and then only to claim that Benjamin Netanyahu was exploiting it “as a pretext to destroy what institutional political (as opposed to military) presence of Hamas remained in the West Bank.”

    Through more than two weeks of fighting, the notion that Hamas was preparing for anything other than more violence is an indefensible position. But for people like Siegman, who have a long history of blaming Israel, it’s the only thing they see.

    Close to the end of the piece, Siegman launches a litany of questions directed at Netanyahu, implying that the answers to those questions reveal who is really at fault. The usual accusations are all there –”why is he inciting against the Palestinian unity government? Why does he continue to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank?”

    If only he could see clearly enough to ask some tough questions of Hamas in Gaza. He might find it shocking and enlightening.
     
  2. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Kidnapping and murder are crimes that should be treated as crimes.. not an excuse for new wars.
     
  3. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    I agree, but what about 1600 (inacurate) missiles lobbed by Hamas on civilians and cows in pasture since the beginning of this year?
     
  4. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The UN has voted to investigate war crimes.
    The Israelis have protested but only the USA voted for them.
    Will we see Netanyahu facing a war crimes trial?
    Maybe at last the truth will come out and the real evil people made to pay.
     
  5. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    I was under the impression that I was responding to someone with a handle on the matter... Alas... big disappointment.

    IDF Spokesperson Announcement -Summary of Yesterday's Events
    July 24, 2014
    Location : Tel Aviv


    Since midnight, approximately 98 rockets were fired at Israel, out of which
    70 hit Israeli territory and 25 were intercepted. Since the beginning of
    Operation Protective Edge, Gaza terrorists fired approximately 2270 rockets
    at Israeli civilians. 448 of them were intercepted by the Iron Dome, while
    another 1777 hit Israeli territory. So far, three Israeli civilians have
    been killed by such rockets.

    Over the course of the day (July 23, 2014), the IDF targeted over 100 terror
    sites across the Gaza Strip, including concealed rocket launchers, terror
    tunnels, militant compounds, and terror activity posts located within the
    premises of Al-Wafa hospital, from which multiple attacks were executed
    against IDF forces. In addition, IDF forces detained 150 Palestinians
    suspected of involvement in terror activity and transferred them for
    security questioning.

    Since Operation Protective Edge began, the IDF targeted some 3,333 terror
    targets. The IDF targeted over 200 terrorists.

    Early yesterday (July 23, 2014), a dozen terrorists were identified driving
    a vehicle in the guise of an ambulance to a site in the southern Gaza Strip.
    An IAF aircraft targeted three of the terrorists and a short while later,
    the site itself.

    In addition, a special force apprehended a terrorist disguised in an IDF
    uniform in the Gaza Strip.

    Since July 8, 2014, the IDF enabled access to more than 864 trucks carrying
    fuels, food, medical and general supplies into Gaza. This, in addition to
    the recent establishment of a field hospital for wounded Palestinian
    civilian. Earlier this evening, roughly ten mortars were fired from Gaza at
    the hospital, endangering both the Israeli staff and the Palestinian
    patients.

    In combined IDF-ISA activities, over the last few days several prominent
    field commanders of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. All terrorists targeted
    were involved in many attacks against IDF soldiers in Gaza and in the firing
    of rockets at Israeli communities. They've also been central figures during
    Operation Protective Edge.

    Palestinian Islamic Jihad Commanders who have been targeted:

    Acram Salah Mahmmar Sh'ar - A senior PIJ militant. In charge of PIJ's
    militant activity in the area of Khan Yunis. Was in charge of executing
    attacks against IDF forces on the Gaza border and of rockets fired from the
    area of Khan Yunis at Israeli communities.

    Mahmoud Awwad Ali Ziada &#8211; a resident of Jabaliya. A prominent PIJ terrorist
    and head of PIJ activity in the northern Gaza Strip.

    Shaben Haled Sha'aben Dahduh- a resident of Gaza City. A prominent PIJ
    operative and head of PIJ activity in Gaza City region.

    Sa'yeed Mahamed Nasser Au Mamer- a resident of Rafah. A senior PIJ
    operative, and head of PIJ activity in Rafah.
    ________________________________________
    IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
     
  6. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  7. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    The truth will come out and the evil Paleastinian Hamas will pay !! Inshalllllah
     
  8. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    According to Thrall, Hamas is now seeking through violence what it should have obtained through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. &#8220;Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets.&#8221; It is not only Hamas supporters, but many Gazans, perhaps a majority, who believe it is worth paying a heavy price to change a disastrous status quo.

    Both Thrall and Siegman insist that Hamas was willing to live up to international conditions to renounce violence, recognize Israel, and accede to past agreements. But there is no basis for their supreme confidence in Hamas. In fact, there was no act of disarming and no statements of recognizing Israel.

    Israel has behaved badly towards the Palestinian refugees for 60 years ...... Hard to play victim at this late date.

    Remember, they flatly rejected the Saudi Peace Initiative in the spring of 2002 that would have guaranteed their security... Also remember the have Iron Dome and ask yourself "how many Israelis and cows" have been killed???

    Massive retaliations for what is effectively the crime of murder it what bullies do.. and it has NEVER worked in the past.
     
  9. rkhames

    rkhames Well-Known Member

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    Have you even bothered to follow the news? Even if you limited yourself to the mainstream media's snippets, you would know how inaccurate you post is. The first criminal act was Hamas kidnapping, torturing and murdering three Israeli youths. When the Israelis attempted to investigate the crimes, the so called Unity Government obstructed them every step of the way. In other words, they harbored the criminals. Then some Israelis kidnapped, tortured and murdered a Palestinian girl in retaliation. The Israeli Government identified and arrested the criminals. The Government promised to prosecute them. But it was Hamas that decided to start a war over a criminal act.
     
  10. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    Criminal acts? What about the targeted assassinations (complete with colateral damage) and the blockade that were put in place by Israel? What about the land theft? I guess they're not part of the news you listen to (Fox, huh?).

    I guess that if China decided to take the entire US west coast, blockaded the rest of the country and assassinated your politicians, your moral superiority would make that you would turn into peaceniks instead of resisting?

    Funny thing is, your post, for all its lack of subtlety, was the most cerebral on the zionist side of the thread.
     
  11. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Yes.. I have followed this conflict very closely since the early 1950s.
     
  12. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Let's see the evidence that Hamas was responsible. Israel started killing Hamas leaders and arresting hundreds of Palestinians.

    Hamas are defending themselves.
     
  13. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It wasn't just kidnapping and murder. Hamas, once again, began raining unguided rockets into Israeli population centers. An attack on Israel is grounds for war and Israel has every right to defend itself against the Hezbollah backed terrorists of Hamas.
     
  14. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Defending themselves by firing rockets at civilians? How on earth is attempting to kill a civilian defensive?
     
  15. Mayerling

    Mayerling Well-Known Member

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    So why would anyone with any sense take anything as the truth from either the IDF or HAMAS
     
  16. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Given their situation and means, attacking civilians is one of the only methods at their disposal to defend themselves from Israeli aggression. Perhaps if they had anti-aircraft systems, they wouldn't have to focus on civilians.
     
  17. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Precisely how does targeting civilians protect Gazans from the IDF?

    The IDF didn't start this mess. Hamas did. Israel offered to participate in an Egyptian brokered truce. Hamas flatly refused and continued to fire rockets at civilian population centers in Israel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Got proof that the IDF spokesperson is lying?
     
  18. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Bullcrap. How exactly did Hamas start this mess?

    Yes, Hamas refused because it wanted guarantees from Israel that it would alleviate the situation in Gaza. Perhaps if you considered the other's side position and ignored your infatuation for Israel for a while, you'd have a more precise view of things.
     
  19. rkhames

    rkhames Well-Known Member

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  20. DrewBedson

    DrewBedson Active Member

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    Seems to me that when you don't have a weapon to fight the actual enemy with you are done but in your rational, deliberately killing women children and babies is 'defensive.' What immediate threat that qualifies as something that must be defended against do these civilians do to Hamas that they have to be dealt with by using terrorism? And for that matter, since when is terrorism a defensive weapon?

    And perhaps if they had unicorns to hide behind they wouldn't have to hide behind their women and children when they 'defended' themselves against women and children by trying to kill them.
     
  21. Mayerling

    Mayerling Well-Known Member

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    I have never known a spokesman for any country who doesn't like as a matter of habit when defending the acts of his govt. come on Jason you know better than that.
     
  22. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    You and I should find some kind of <Modus Vivendi> but alas your way of reasoning is based on your upbringing it seems, your people cannot do any harm and the culprits are always the Jews. If this is any reality... why is it that Arabs in Israel are serving in the IDF and now are in Gaza fighting and dying with the Jewish soldiers.

    Hamas has refused a Truce offered by Egypt as a mediator that the Israelis accepted... what gives Margot?

    Stop the fantasies and let us be a little more pragmatic... no one on earth is considered a Refugee for 60 Years.
    An Arab woman mother of three Arab soldiers in the IDF made a statement lately... quote <We are Israeli Arabs and those that do not want to believe in that, should leave to one of the 21 Arab countries.> unquote

    Why don't you elaborate on the <Saudi Peace initiative> a little bit more so some reader could have a belly laugh from time to time... The Saudi initiative was a trap, a precedent to give part of the Jewish Patrimony to people who do not deserve it and would live as fifth columnists in the heart of the Jewish state. If you read this differently, let me know.

    I wish you were here when Jewish towns, villages and farms were under fire... nearly 2000 missiles were lobbed on Israel from Gaza since the beginning of June... No country in the world would have suffered the one way bombardments without reacting!!
     
  23. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    You think I wouldn't notice that you evaded all of my previous point, do you?

    Yep. That makes me a more democratic person than you.

    Ha ha ha. Nice try there. The Middle-East Quartet (a useless focus group, not an authority) was formed in 2002, on the events of the second Intifada. They never did suggest, or approve Gaza's total blockade, but rather the Peace Valley Initiative. It won't work on me.

    The blockade is a mean of economic strangulation, for reasons I am sure you are aware of. It de facto justifies (but not excuse) every excess that were made in attempting to break it. The tunnels are a direct product of that same blockade, and are used to prevent Gaza to die. If it were used to just re-inforce Hamas' "army", why are they still armed with just crappy homemade Qassams?

    So it's what, forced democracy? Democracy as long as they elect who you decide? Like that, in the open? Some policeman of the world you are. Winning the hearts and minds, are you?
    :salute:

    Apples and oranges are comparable. More than apples and ratchets, anyway. Still, you didn't respond any of those points, so I guess you that's your white flag over there.
     
  24. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Terrorism is the only means which groups like Hamas have available to deal with the likes of Israel. If the Jews don't want their babies killed (though Israel are the only ones here killing babies anyway), they know what they have to do. But they don't do it, so don't expect any sympathy.
     
  25. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Let us look at the facts, shell we?
    Terrorism is not the only way for Arab organizations against Isreal, Abu Mazen is doing a lot of things and acomplished alot of things without terrorism, Hamas on the other hand is an organization of daying. He only kill his own cevilians and firing rockets, like he did just couple of hours ago and still doing, while there is an humanitarion lull between Israel and Hamas.
    The UN found in 2 UNRWA schools in Gaza 20 rockets, 20!! in one hospital in Gaza there was a lot of weapons.
    Here is for exemple what the IDF soldiers revealed in a cevilian house next to an UN school:
    [video=youtube;0fze6qHvzgQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fze6qHvzgQ&list=UUawNWlihdgaycQpO3zi-jYg[/video]

    Here is a Israel baby photo was used by Hamas as a Gazan baby:
    [video=youtube;XHKCPq7uE-0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHKCPq7uE-0[/video]
     

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