Pro-Palestine Demonstrations

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by longknife, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. longknife

    longknife New Member

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  2. Routist

    Routist New Member

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    It's appalling, it really is. I was thrilled that Paris had the nerve to ban any pro-Palestinian protests and rightly so, there's little need for the Middle East's religious and geopolitical tensions to spill out onto the streets of Europe. While the vast majority of such protests have been carried out peacefully and with a dignified manner the number of others linked to anti-semitic attacks in their wake is far too high. Beatings in France, the smashing and looting of Jewish shops, desecration of Mosques in Miami
    , attacks of Jewish property and most shockingly of all the setting up of social networking groups specifically tailored to find and "harass" Jews in Paris.
     
  3. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    Just a bunch of ignorant, burka-clad anti-Semites who are so oh-so concerned about their "Muslim brothers" in "Palestine" that their protests over the many many more Muslims being killed by their fellow Muslims in Egypt, Syria and by ISIS have been noticeably absent.
     
  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Israel complains about salutes, Palestine complains about hundreds of dead women & children.
     
  5. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    Racist, Nazi, anti-Semitic salutes, by scum who want to drag Europe back to the dark days of the 1930s and things like Kristallnacht and Oswald Mosley's Blackshirts.

    There'd be hundreds of dead Israeli women and children if Hamas rockets were more accurate, don't forget (although the Israel haters DO forget about the many rockets fired into Israel every single day).

    And there's be a lot less dead "Palestinians" if Hamas actually allowed them to leave the areas where Israel are warning they are about to strike, rather than forcing them to stay put. But Hamas doesn't allow these people to leave areas which are about to be hit by strikes because Hamas cares little about "Palestinian" civilians as, in their eyes, the more dead Palestinian civilians there are the more the ignorant Israel-haters will be on their side in their campaign to wipe out a whole country.

    This is also evidenced by the fact that Hamas love nothing more than to place their rocket launchers in school playgrounds and in people's neighjbourhoods, knowing full well the Israelis will target these rocket launchers.
     
  6. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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    I support the BDS campaign but what was going on in France is deplorable march to the embassy not a place of worship. And for god sakes leave private businesses alone.

    I have also heard security in Jewish schools in the uk has had to be increased increased.

    I think the Israel government is in the wrong but anti Israeli sentiment seems to be slipping into anti semitism, already a problem on the fringe.
     
  7. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    could you give some links for some of those things.
     
  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ronstar is a Jew and he supports Israel as well as a Palestinian state. I have a feeling things are more complicated. At the first march in France where they apparently harassed a synagogue it was also reported that it was the Jewish Defence League who actually attacked the protesters. The Jewish Defence League is a big problem in France and not helping antisemitism.

    That being said there is also the recession and France does seem to be moving to the Front National and has for some years now been mentioned as having a genuine growing level of antisemitism. At the moment though it has sufficient laws to protect people so anything which happens is by law breaking.
    Well they are not so there are one an a half thousand and growing dead men women children and babies in Gaza and 25% of the country are now refugees and 40% of the country has been destroyed. Getting pretty near a crime against humanity.
    None of this is true


    "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

    "There is no evidence that Hamas and other militants force civilians to stay in areas that are under attack— the legal definition of a human shield under international law."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/w...-using-civilians-as-shields-in-gaza.html?_r=1

    " I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. I saw men from Hamas on street corners, keeping an eye on what was happening."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-a...aw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human
     
  9. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    me too
    I don't think they did march to a Synagogue. If it was the first week it was a peaceful march until something happened outside a Synagogue. Mainly reported as keeping the Jews terrified inside but reported one or two places as actually being an attack by the Jewish Defence League. The second week they were under danger of one to four years in jail and it was not to a Synagogue either though it seemed to have headlines saying that. Can't remember what exactly but I don't think either was a march or protest to a Synagogue in reality. Nonetheless France is a country people have been concerned about antisemitism for a while now, a year or two at least.

    antisemitism always increases everywhere when Israel goes to war. In the UK I don't think it is anything more than that.

    I don't see any sign of that in the UK. I do though see a very strong anger at the massacre which is going on in Gaza. We have had increasingly large marches in various areas of the UK - last week in London I think it was 100,000 and it was not antisemetic. One person had a banner saying some thing like Like Jews, hate what is going on in Gaza. Pro Israeli marches though are small. At the time of the first intifada they had 30,000 but now it is down to 1,500 and from what I hear even those people do not really believe what they are saying.

    Do you know this site. http://jfjfp.com/ You might like it.
     
  10. Routist

    Routist New Member

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    Yes, of course:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/gaza-conflict-seen-sparking-anti-semitic-attacks-in-france.html?_r=0

    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/07/28/north-miami-beach-synagogue-vandalized/

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-spills-into-europe-with-protests-anti-jewish-slogans/2014/07/30/36ca8d41-b5a4-4790-9b53-c94e75da4ba6_story.html

    There have been numerous other incident, especially the particularly deplorable case of a Belgian doctor refusing to treat a ninety year old woman on the grounds of her being Jewish. he reportedly told her "go to gaza". Oh dear...
     
  11. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK as I said in another post antisemitism always in all countries grows when Israel goes to war. It usually about doubles. That does not make it ok but that kind of antisemitism tends to disappear as quickly as it comes when peace is restored. The example from the US seems to fit in with that.

    Regarding the Belgium doctor - of course unacceptable. I have read stories of Romanian drs doing the same to Roma.

    Part of it is when Israel is acting as she is now people do get angry and if you want to have a look at some of the stuff which is going on in Israel check out this site http://972mag.com/ a mixture of authors who feel they cannot get in general the ability for independent thought through usual papers so created this one. In other words they believe there is censorship in reporting the situation in Israel/Palestine. A large majority are Jewish and or Israeli.

    I am currently so angry with what Israel is doing that I want the world's door shut on her and would do anything I could to make that happen. However Israel does not even have half the Jews in the world and many of them in increasing numbers are highly critical of what Israel is doing. For Brits they are here http://jfjfp.com/. I used to call the people who went on their antisemitism sprees the 'rent a mob' - that is people who will just go after whoever is the target this week - frequently Muslims. I can understand that people in their anger without proper education become sloppy in their thinking and start thinking this is Jews rather than something which is only relevant to those in Israel - or rather the governments actions in Israel aided and condoned by the Governments of the US, UK Germany and others. Sadly all of us are moulded by the propaganda we receive and that is no less so in Israel than in anywhere else. Obviously what is required is for more education in school so that people learn to keep the two things separate like that banner I saw last week 'Like Jews, hate what is happening in Gaza'. It is not impossible that the rules given to the German marchers were simply a part of that. Do not approach this in an antisemetic way. People sometimes simply need to learn.

    Of course there are some people who are hardened antisemeitcs but I suspect in most countries they are still a very small number.

    France I am unsure of and would need to do proper research before coming to conclusions. I do know however that Anthony Lerman a British antisemitism expert but highly critical of Israel was being questioned a year or so ago about whether he believed that European Jews still needed Israel for safety. He believed no that Western European Jews are now accepted as part of the furniture then he thought for a moment and said 'France ...well....yes France too because the state has all the laws in place to protect Jews' which does lead me to believe there may be more difficulties in France, not helped by the appearing popularity of Le Penn, or the Jewish Defence League.
     
  12. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  13. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    More Reporters Than Anti-Israel Demonstrators

    [​IMG]

    The picture speaks for itself. Hungry for anything against Israel, journalist leap at any opportunity – but, did they ignore the 10,000 who demonstrated in SUPPORT of Israel in NYC?
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://jpupdates.com/2014/08/02/bri...semitic-attacks-will-increase-result-gaza-op/
     
  15. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    I've noticed that Britain's left-wing dominated media decided not to show all those bigots waving ISIS flags during their anti-Semitic march through London which was poorly disguised as a "support for 'Palestinians' " march (where were these people when thousands of Muslims were being killed by Muslims in Egypt and Syria?).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_Ugsv5u-sW0
     
  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Anti-Jewish hostility provoked by the Gaza offensive: Is antisemitism the right word for it?

    With his permission, I am publishing on my blog a Facebook post by Dr Steven Beller, an independent scholar based in Washington DC, which presents an alternative analysis of the anti-Jewish hostility currently being experienced in Europe as a result of Israel’s offensive against Gaza. Dr Beller was a visiting scholar at George Washington University and a Research Fellow at Peterhouse College Cambridge. He is the author of major books on Austrian and Jewish history and also an expert on the history of antisemitism. He authored Antisemitism: A Very Short Introduction for Oxford University Press (2007). The post was written in response to a New York Times article, which appeared on 2 August, entitled ‘Antisemitism rises in Europe amid Israel-Gaza conflict’. All antisemitism is unacceptable, but Dr Beller questions whether it’s the right term for the hostility in Europe to Israel and Jews. It’s important to hear this view because at times like this, various commentators fail to understand the context in which this hostility appears and are therefore liable to spread hysteria and paranoia. Particularly unfortunate is the fact that we are seeing the recycling of an article written by Howard Jacobson in February 2009 about responses to Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, a piece that generates far more heat than light. Comments on Dr Beller’s post are welcome.

    Tony Lerman

    .................................................................................................................................

    I am not sure ‘antisemitism’ is the right term any more for the hostility in Europe to Israel and the Jewish communities in Europe, which, on the evidence of this article, appears now to be mainly coming from young Muslim immigrants in Europe. If the leadership of those Jewish communities adopt an approach of complete solidarity with the aggressive foreign policy of Israel, as a sovereign state separate from the countries in which those Jewish communities live, then this is an externalized relationship of conflict, unlike the historically internalized relationship of conflict.

    When political antisemitism was at its height, from c.1870 to 1945, there was no sovereign Jewish state to hate. All hostility to Jews was internal or against a spectral ‘Jewish conspiracy’ whether of the ‘Judaeo-Bolsheviks’ or the ‘Elders of Zion’. Zionism, ironically, was supposed to solve this hostility by making Jews whole human-beings in their own state. Now we have that state, Israel, which Zionists wish us to think of as the ‘Jewish state’, the political expression of the Jewish nation’s/people’s right to self-determination (so a complete identification in Zionism between the state of Israel and the Jewish people).

    When some critics of Israel conflate their target of hostility with the Jewish communities in the various countries, they are only doing what Israel and its Zionist supporters have said they should do -saying that you are in complete solidarity with Israel means that you share responsibility for Israel’s moral decisions and actions. So blaming Jews along with Israel for what Israel is doing is just like blaming American people abroad for what Americans are doing. (Israel does not see Jewishness as a religious category, but as a national one.) This might be a little unfair, but it is not racist, and has a certain logic to it (if you accept the idea of national collective responsibility, which most of us do, at some level.) I cannot see how that, per se, can be classified as ‘antisemitism’ (as it is in this myopic article), which has much worse, racist, paranoid and irrationalist, connotations, and the whole moral burden of the Holocaust.

    Calling this hostility to current Israeli policies (which in any other context would be viewed as extreme nationalism), and towards the Jewish communities who are usually explicitly, and almost always implicitly, supporting these policies, ‘antisemitism’, or even the relatively recent ‘new antisemitism’ appears to me a deliberate attempt by Israel and its supporters to obfuscate the actual political and moral situation, and to smear Israel’s opponents with the guilt of the Holocaust. Let us call these protests ‘anti-Israeli’, ‘anti-Zionist’, or even, at a stretch, ‘anti-Jewish’, but I do not think they have the same causation as historic antisemitism, and it is misleading to continue dragging this term in here.

    Even when historical antisemitic tropes are used by Arab and Muslim opponents of Israel and the supporters of its policies, the core reason for them doing this (to bolster their arguments) appears to me to be Israel and its anti-Arab, anti-Palestinian, policies. If there is a rise in anti-Jewish hostility, and anti-Jewish attacks, in modern-day Europe, the main provoker of this hostility is what Israel does, either in expanding settlements, bombarding Palestinian civilians, or making deliberately excessive demands on a relatively moderate Fatah Palestinian leadership in peace talks. The existence of Hamas, and its defiance in letting missiles be lobbed into Israel is a tragic development (brought about partly by Israeli attempts to undermine Fatah), but the answer is not more violence that jeopardizes the position of Jews all over the world, but rather a genuine attempt to make sustainable peace. If Israel continues its attitude of defiance of international legal norms and of the wishes of the international community as regards settlements, then this is almost inviting a real resurgence of a form of historical antisemitism, together with, ironically, a xenophobia exacerbated by Islamophobia.

    By the way, is it not ironic that one of the ‘experts’ avers that ‘violence always starts in the mind’. So where, one might ask, did the violence being visited on civilians in Gaza come from? Could it be Jewish nationalist (Zionist) prejudice and hatred against Palestinians? For simply refusing to go away?
    "

    Steven Beller

    http://antonylerman.com/2014/08/04/...ensive-is-antisemitism-the-right-word-for-it/

    Thoughts?
     
  17. Routist

    Routist New Member

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    Or the Christians that are currently being purged from Iraqi society by ISIS. Give lefties credit that that care for the supposedly oppressed, but if they do purport to represent the humane side of politics, then why are they so selective about who they support. The war in Syria has been going on for some three years, with an innumerable higher degree of slaughter than I'm Israel, and yet where are the protests demanding unilateral action and expressing outrage over this act of inhumanity? Instead what we got was a handful of Syrian single mothers, waving banners screaming "hey look at us" (satire alert) , yet any action by the Jewish state results in tens if thousands spilling their hearts out as much for the civilians as the terrorist scum who run the show down in Gaza town.
     
  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have found this article which both investigates the accusations made about the first French march - Jews trapped in Synagogue terrified etc and investigates the situation concerning antisemitism itself in France.

    http://jfjfp.com/?p=63841
     
  19. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    While I appreciate you effort, I thought board rules deter cutting and pasting entire articles.
     
  20. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, it doesn't say that but it does say that they should not replace own ideas. As it happens that article was so long, and important imo given what people have written in this thread that I thought it would be good for people to read so that they knew what they were talking about - not yourself possibly as I gather you did not read it.

    The article shows that it is a very complex situation in France, not just 'it is antisemitism'. As I gather you did not read it, if you do you will find that the accusation of holding a synagogue in terror is rejected by the people who were inside and instead there is a video of the LDJ (Jewish Defense League) attacking those on the march. It also claims that there is no evidence that the things which it was claimed were called for instance 'gas the Jews' or 'death to the Jews' even happened. It claims careful examination of video can fine no evidence and that although they could have happened without their knowing they believe that even moderate nazi people nowadays would not use them preferring instead to be a holocaust denier. While unable to say this did not happen the article does seem to think it may not have and is false information.

    It claims that the police are in Cahoots with LDJ and indeed in the video you can see them running back to the police lines and being let through rather than what you would expect, arrested. The police were however tear gassing the non LDJ marchers and the video suggests the reason for that was to protect the LDJ as in particular they were heard saying "“if you go on charging, we won’t be able to help you anymore”

    The point of that is to give a more accurate account of that first night of marches. I have recently heard that the LDJ who are a terrorist group in for instance the US and I think Israel are causing problems in France. Clearly it is not good for antisemitism to have groups of vigilantes roaming the streets causing trouble. France has apparently been slow to arrest them though some of them were on trial a few weeks ago. From this it appears the Police are working with them and supporting them. Clearly if France is supporting vigilantees that is not good.

    It then mentions a definitely antisemetic group called 'Gaza Firm' and that such as Gilad Atzmon and Israel Shamir have support there but also makes the point that due to all the takeover of Israel concerning new antisemitism, Israel claiming to speak for all Jews and so on, it has become far more difficult to actually see where antisemitism is. They talk about the need for people to be able to recognise the distinction between the actions of Israel, National Jews who approve of those action and Jews who do not. In this respect I can remember a few days ago reading that before a march somewhere in Britain against the Gaza war, Jews who were also marching on it were handing out papers to the people illustrating what was and what was not antisemitism. This seemed like a good idea to me as, as I have said before many people just need to understand what the situation is. This is particularly true given the things I have just written of.

    The article also points out that most people are unaware that American Christian Zionists are often far more articulate and supporting of the most criticised actions and policies of Israel than local Jews. That is a very good point and one I think people should become more aware of.

    The article says that after Germany France is the country which feels most uncomfortable criticising Israel. Apparently it is possible to be prosecuted for saying even a moderate criticism of Israel. Wow! It goes on to speak about how just about anything in France can be criticised, usually by leftists as antisemitism. Clearly according to examples given in France there is an over the top lack of free speech with regard to Israel. That itself is concerning. France it would seem moved in a very different direction to the UK which still has more or less free speech unless it is hate speech and where you cannot be arrested for for instance holocaust denial as you can in France. The article then talks of the left having got really messed up after the 68 marches etc produced no results and as a result of this they see 'totalitarianism' everywhere!! The best they can hope for, so the article says is a market economy. Everything which is anti is seen as totalitarian. They believe the old left have become a sort of 1950s McCarthyism. To them everything but the market economy is tyranny and it is from there they see antisemitism as a very wrong thing. They see this working "through a chain of equivalents linking, a la Bernard-Henri Lévy, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, anti-Americanism, anti-democracy, and antisemitism"

    ok there is much in that article and I do not for the time being have more time for interpretation.

    So the points are. The situation as described on the march in our daily papers does not match up to video of the march. This did not show anything like the level of antisemitism which was declared which appears to be a gross exaggeration and using that to discount the attack by the LDJ supported by the police.

    However it does go on to speak about other attacks in France against Synagogues and so on and recognises that there certainly is a definite amount of resentment to Jews in France. It is unsure whether this is all antisemitism. For a start public discourse is not allowed on the topic of Israel to any level and of course that generally results in people feeling resentment. It is also difficult for society in general to know at this point what is antisemitism for the reasons I gave above. The article also points out that part of the problem may be resentment from French Society to Muslims who apparently are the main protesters.

    It then goes on to describe various ways in which antisemitism has to some extent, sometimes a questionable extent been brought to the front, for instance Dieudonné. One thing which I found concerning was that which ever side a person seemed to be on, they were on the side of Le Penn.

    I am going to leave this here for now. The problems with antisemitism in France is multidimentional and not something you can just flippantly say. I guess the article is reminding us that though it is always easier to call names if you want to get at the truth you need to look at the whole picture. There is a reason for everything. Now did you find that easier to read than the article? It is a very good article and it needs study. That is why I put it up. Often when things are written someone just picks up one thing out of context and it is lost. This article has too much to do that. If you want to reply I would be grateful if you could make any criticisms of what I have said in relation to the article rather than just saying you do not agree with me. If you do not agree with what I said the article said, let me know. Thank you. If you want to address some part of the article I did not go into, that too.
     
  21. ryanm34

    ryanm34 New Member

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