Israel Uses Gaza As A Proving Ground

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Taxcutter, Aug 4, 2014.

  1. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    20,847
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mostly for anti-missile measures.

    The Iron Dome air defense system gets the press, but the Trophy system for protecting AFVs may be more important.

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20140803.aspx

    quote:
    “…Trophy was more dangerous for Hamas gunmen because it made Israeli tanks virtually invulnerable and able to do a lot of damage to front line Hamas fighters.“




    Taxcutter says:
    Wow! Trophy defeats everything from a RPG to a Kornet E.

    IDI tech development is part of a two-way street with the US. The US helps and both nations share proven technology and operational experience.
     
  2. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Please, tell us more about invulnerable Merkava.

    [​IMG]

    Actually the structure of merkava armor is "remarkable". No chances against AP sabot.
     
  3. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    20,847
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Taxcutter says:
    From the earliest days in World War I, tanks have shown a tendency to throw tracks. That vehicle has no battle damage. The crew is repairing the track.
     
  4. william walker

    william walker New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The UK also helped with the creation of the Trophy system. We should be getting it for our lightly skinned vehicles. However the main issue in Afghanistan was IED's and Trophy doesn't help with that and most Israeli troops are still being killed by light gun fire and IED's in buildings. Israeli tanks also would likely have been able to sustain themselves against Hamas anti-tank missiles as British and Americans tanks did in Iraq.

    In the end Trophy is useful, but not battlefield changing. Like CIWS on ships it only limits one threat, it doesn't remove it. If it was improved to stop other tank shells, well that would be a change.
     
  5. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2014
    Messages:
    6,559
    Likes Received:
    588
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, IED threat is a real plague for our forces in Afghanistan and it's hard to defend a convoy from that kind of device [despite all possible efforts and all possible tech, there are still visible losses caused by IED].

    The Trophy is great [and there is a version also for helicopters], but only in case of shooting attackers. The explosion of a hidden mine [or other explosive device] is still a real threat for the vehicle and for the crew [Trophy or not].
     
  6. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    20,847
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Taxcutter says:
    The IED is a close-assault weapon. Close assault of armored vehicles is risky business. In Iraq and Afghanistan it usually resulted in the trigger scumbag getting whacked.

    Ranged attack is safer but Trophy reduces the effectiveness of ranged attack.
     
  7. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2014
    Messages:
    6,559
    Likes Received:
    588
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The potential enemies in a similar context are many, difficult to detect and with the will to give their life for the "cause" [just to use an old say].

    This makes the IED tactic quite effective from their perspective [for our perspective, the high casualties among the attackers would suggest to change strategy ...].
     
  8. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yeah.....sure. That hole in the center of the tank's hull (between S and H letters) seems to be just ventilation then. Eheheheh.
     
  9. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Your assessment of getting triggermen isn't really true. Neither is IEDs being a close "assualt weapon"

    Triggermen could use hundreds of feet of wire to detonate one. There were also pressure activated, or remote detonated.

     
  10. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Dude, they're busting track. It happens. There's no hole from a explosive force.
     
  11. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    If you say so. Can you eleborate what is the purpose of that hole in the hull?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Have you ever seen a caused by a penetrator? Where's the spatter from the molten shape-charge?

    When did penatrators make holes with a perfect circumference?

    Oh wait, they don't.

    I honestly don't know what that hole is, but it's not from a shape charge, like a RPG-29.
     
  13. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Have you seen explosively formed penetrator impact? Or usual armor-piercing shell impact? Or shaped charge against thin metal? Because it is unclear if it is main armor or just screen.



    For reference:
    [​IMG]
    A hole created by TM-83 mine. The mine is capable of penetrating a 80 milimeters hole in 400 milimeters thick armor.
     
  14. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    20,847
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Taxcutter says:
    The hole with painted surfaces around it? A shaped charge would leave burned surfaces around it. There are no such burned surfaces her.
    Also there is no evidence this vehicle has been retrofitted with Trophy yet.
     
  15. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Apparently karma prohibs them to wash it out.

    Have I ever claimed that it was a shaped charge, BTW? If I recall correctly, I havn't. Could be as well explosively formed penetrator or AP shell.

    Nor I have claimed it was. All I was meaning is that your hilarious claim of Merkava being invulnerable...was...well, hilarious.

    Trophy has it's weak spots:
    a)it contains only 4 shots;
    b)it fails against sabots;
    c)there is at least one system, designed to defeat Trophy.
    Called RPG-30.

    [​IMG]

    Trophy only decreases some threats, but it doesn't make Merkava invulnerable in any way.
     
  16. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That hole in no way came from a explosion
    Next, how many people calmy walk around their tank, which has been hit by some type of anti-tank weapon wich supposedly penetrated it's armor, and bust track?
     
  17. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Would be nice if you add some proof for that. It sure might be an explosively formed penetrator or AP shell result.

    What is your idea of it's origination? A ventilation? Or a special tactical hole to provide crew with cool drinks? Any ideas?
    So....clearing the area from hostiles or evacuating a tank is not even an option?
     
  18. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    All you got are assumptions to back up your mystery Merkav hole.
    I see a picture of a crew simply busting track.
     
  19. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    We are running in circles with your denial.

    So.....what are your ideas about that hole? :roll:


    Damn, their armor is something....

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I know it's a favorite pass time for druken Russians to pull conspiracy theories out of their smelly backsides, but you had no proof tp back up your assertion. Next, how about you stop cherry picking pictures off the internet, and provide a actual source that comes along with instead of just filling it in with your own narrative. Can you do that comrade, or do you need another bottle of vodka to think on it for awhile.
     
  21. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Hey, watch it, I am not a cowboy in Tex to have a smelly backside! We have bath, shower and education over here.
    How exactly I am supposed to do it, if the opponent is denying the obvious?

    Oh, there is a hole in a tank, which shouldn't be there, but that certanly not a result of fighting because....bacause....hurr durr I wan't so.

    "Hurr durr, Merkava stronk!!111, I am denying the obvious. Now I am going to go have some whiskey and (*)(*)(*)(*) some cows"

    Which proof do you want?

    Do you have any other ideas on this hole origin, except "not related to combat"? That is 3-rd time I am asking that.
     
  22. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'd rather be a cow (*)(*)(*)(*)ing texan than a mongaloid slavic knuckle dragger, any day of the week.

    You say I'm denying the obvious, and yet you have no proof of your claim.

    The picture doesn't support what you're. trying to sale. And, I'm not claiming that the Merkav is invincible either. I've heard about them being taken out by deep buried IEDs by Hamas, and anti-tank Munitions from Hezbollah. But it's not the case in that picture. If that very tank was disabled, where's the recovery vehicle, the security helping the re overy, huh? That's right, nowhere to be seen. You got three dudes in overalls busting track.
     
  23. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Glad to hear that. We don't need uneducated human wastes, which don't even know what "mongoloid" means.
    What was my claim exactly in your distorted by metanol reality? There is a hole in the tank--->logical conclusion is that it was hit by something. Judjing by the size of the hole it is either AP shell or explosively formed penetrator hit. Got a problem understanding that?
    So what I am trying to sale?
    Oh, nice, so, at last, you understand what I am trying to "sale".
    Riiiiiiiiight......you need a panoramic picture or something? Sorry, don't have it. Because, you know, the guy taking picture was not aware somebody will demad a recovery vehicle photo so it could be proved this tank was damaged. I am sure as hell he feels himself guilty cause well-known intellectual Bluespade can't take it as a proof.


    Some more photos of "not damaged" according to Bluespade tanks:
    [​IMG]
    Fook, where is recovery vehicle and security personal on that one?????!!!!!!! Totally not damaged!

    This IFV is perfectly fine as well!
    [​IMG]

    Please, continue to enlight us with your wisdom. :smile:
     
  24. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Your picture doesn't support what you're saying. I'm sorry that you have no clue what you're talking about.



     
  25. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    11,132
    Likes Received:
    4,899
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That hole you guys are talking about might be the bilge pump. It's around the same spot as it is on the Abrams.

    Also as someone said it's really not that hard to throw track. When I was a Tanker we managed to throw track by driving over stuff that a mountain bike could navigate through. We've also easily navigated through muck that caused the entire hull to be damn near under mud and rocks. Tanks are weird like that they do what they want and break when they want.

    Plus nothing is invincible not even the strongest armor. I've seen Abrams tanks with full up armor kits get their turrets blown clean off and land on a 3 story building. Enough explosives will blow anything up. Tanks are designed to fight other tanks and the armor is designed to protect against anti tank rounds for the most part. They were never intended to deal with IED's and other types of mines. No matter what type of armor you have somebody out there has something that can punch through it. Sabot rounds are nasty weapons they can punch through damn near anything. Those yellow tipped RPG's aren't too far behind.
     

Share This Page