Alex Salmond says if currency union is refused, Scotland is exempt from any debt

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Vlad Ivx, Sep 10, 2014.

  1. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    He mentioned this several times during his last TV confrontation with Alistair Darling, when he described Scotland past the YES vote.. Any thoughts on this?

    Is Scotland in a position to demand things from Westminster? I think yes, because what obligations can a country have to its former government once it separates? History shows the answer is none, especially if England will refuse the Scottish Government's request for a currency union. The state of England is facing a hard choice, the worse option for them being to deny the Scots a currency union, in which case not only will global markets lose some confidence in the pound sterling but will also get England stuck with the entire sovereign debt of the former United Kingdom.
     
  2. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    i dont know how they could actually stop scotland from using the pound, just as panama does with the US dollar...england could deny scotland any input into monetary policy but thats about all...
     
  3. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    Yes, and that lack of input into monetary policy means the economic past of the two countries as one is going to be erased completely, says Salmond.
     
  4. mairead

    mairead New Member

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    The fact is that as the UK consists of the united Kingdoms of Scotland and England, England does not own the UK currency. England alone does not own the UK assets, England alone does not own the UK military and England alone is not liable for the national debts of the UK.
    There will have to be much arranging done in the event of a yes vote.
    What Alec Salmond has said is that if Scotland does not get it's fair share of the goodies it will not take a share of the debts either. Sounds fair enough to me.
     
  5. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    No, England doesn't own them, but the UK does, and if Scotland leaves the UK, then it leaves its institutions.

    Nobody has ever denied Scotland can continue using the pound, but there will be no currency union with a foreign country and without a lender of last resort Scotland would be stuffed.

    If Scotland doesnt pay its fare share of the debts, then it shuts itself out of international markets.

    Besides which, the rUK could just slap a tariff on Scotland's exports.

    Tome to wake up and move on from Braveheart rhetoric.
     
  6. mairead

    mairead New Member

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    No Lil, because if Scotland leaves the UK then there will be NO United Kingdom, just England and Scotland and the assets at home and abroad would have to be divided because if that did not happen and Scotland rejected it's share of the national debt, England's economy would go, as they say down the swanee.
    Also, the UK military idoes not consist of purely English soldiers, sailors and airmen. There is so much which will need a resolution but Westminster threatening this and that is just so much nonsense.
    I am also of the opinion that Scotland and England would be much better as neighbours than they are at present in this unequal union.
     
  7. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure where you got that from? The UK will consist of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Even Salmond understands that.

    The assets will be divided, but not the institutions. The currency of the UK is an institution and not up for grabs.


    Then you're dreaming.

    Scotland, as a country with no currency of its own, will be straight down the Swanee as you so elegantly put it.
     
  8. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    yeah england is just being childish/irrational, if the decision is made to separate calmer heads will work it out...

    we had the same situation in canada when quebec had it's separation votes, threat and counter threat...it made no sense to deny quebec the use of the canadian dollar, north american has a free trade agreement Quebec is part of n america so there's no reason for that to change...Scotland and the EU relationship should continue as well...debt wise canada fully expected Quebec to assume it's share of the debt...

    interesting how england is now offering economic/political concessions, why weren't those issues/grievances addressed earlier, why did it require a real threat of separation to get those changes?...I'd be skeptical they'd actually follow through...
     
  9. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    irrational threats...how many billion will it cost england to remove and then build a new nuclear submarine base?...divorce need not be bitter, think of it as a rational business negotiation...
     
  10. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    You mean the rUK. It will cost a great deal to build a new base for Trident, but what does that have to do with the price of jam?
     
  11. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    with cooler heads and the threat and counter threat situation can be ended...a deal can be made where the tridents can remain...a deal can be made where scotland uses the pound...a deal can be made where scotland assumes a share of the debt...the emotional part of separation needs to eliminated, it's business...
     
  12. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    No deal can be made whereby Trident remains in an independent Scotland. That is not in the cards.

    Indeed, getting rid of Trident is one of the main arguments for independence.

    Quebec voted against separation, so what is your point?

    There is nothing stopping Scotland continuing the use the pound and nobody has claimed there is.

    There will not be a currency union, however.
     
  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I get that Scotland could continue to use the pound after independence, but I don't understand Salmond's demand for a currency union. It sounds like he wants some Scottish control of the Bank of England. If that's the case, why in the world does Scotland want to be independent if they don't plan to either go with the Euro or eventually issue their own currency? A currency union just puts them in the same place they are now, so what's the point?
     
  14. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Salmond, unsurprisingly, is wrong. He's wrong about a lot of things.
     
  15. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    They believe the lie that everyone living in Scotland will be £500 per year better off. They haven't really looked at the maths.
     
  16. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    And who's gonna oblige him to pay the sovereign debt of the former UK if he doesn't want to? So far the debt was being payed through the Bank of England which took totally different administrative numbers, subdivisions, economic and demographic factors into account. Excluding Scotland from the past scheme means you simply invalidate Scotland's part in it, you invalidate its compatibility and ability to corroborate its new economic mechanisms to the past ones, by the very fact that you force them to create new ones for themselves, at least that's what's most sound to me.
     
  17. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    The UK won't cease to exist if Scotland votes yes. And the fact is he will have to, particularly if he doesn't want angry people demanding to know what happened to their pensions
    Debt doesn't get paid by the Bank of England.
    Governmental debt is financed through the issuing of bonds which are publicly available.
    The responsibility of the bank of England is to be the UK's lender of last resort, determine interest rates, hold the governments money, and to issue currency of which it has the monopoly.
    I don't quite follow you there.
     
  18. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    [video=youtube;D_JS5WCO31Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_JS5WCO31Y[/video]
     
  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is quite possible to be an independent country and share currency - think France and Germany.

    When Ireland left the UK she shared the pound and took none of the debt.

    Here are the reasons why we want a currency union to begin with.

    Financial markets nowadays get the jitters at things changing. We have already seen some consequences of this. Westminster saying it will not have a currency union before negotiations begin makes such things a certainty.

    We want to take our share of the debt. If we do not have a currency union we will not be able to get good rates on our interest payments. Scotland's share of the debt would be 1 trillion pounds - an amount which even with low interest rates it is unlikely will ever be paid off till inflation has become rampant.

    Further if we were to have our own currency we would need to have our own currency reserve. This and the higher interest rates we would face due to not having proved ourselves will mean we are likely to need to pay high rates. Clearly we could not possibly afford to also take on £1trillion which rUK has acknowledged is it's debt which it will keep paying even if Scotland decides not to. Now despite what Mark Carney has been saying the last couple of days I have always believed that the 'no currency union' was a bluff and given that what he said was different to what he said some months ago I still think that. It will be rUK's choice - find a way for a currency Union which is acceptable to Scotland - which is perfectly possible or do not expect us to take on a share of debt created in Westminster and over which we are not legally liable.

    Some people would prefer us to have our own currency from the beginning and we most likely will move to that once people see that we are a good bet for low rates or possibly for some other reason.

    Of course we already have our own Scottish pounds so no problem there.
     
  20. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is forcing Scotland to become an independent country, but if that's what happens, then they will need their own currency as soon as possible and they will need to pay off their share of the debt if there's going to be any sort of success.
     
  21. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes. The Euro is a raging success, isn't it?

    Times have changed. We ( including you) had to bail out Irish banks. Never again.

    Then vote against independence.

    You seem to think the world is going to wait for Scotland to sort itself out, but that's not going to happen. Of course it makes sense for iScotland to have a currency union with the rUK - it can then have its cake and eat it, but you cannot have independence and keep Bank of England as lender of last resort.

    Even if rUK were to agree, iScotland would need to give up so much of its fiscal powers, then calling itself an indepndent country would be laughable.
     
  22. mairead

    mairead New Member

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    No Lil. Read what I said. the Act of Union was the uniting of the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England. It has nothing at all to do with Wales and Northern Ireland.
    Wales had been a territory of England long before the act of Union, and Northern Ireland is a recent territory. What does remain if Scotland leaves, is a diminished Great Britain but not, definately NOT a united Kindom as there will only be one Kingdom there, that of England.
     
  23. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    None of that makes sense.
    There were several acts of union which brought Scotland into the United Kingdom.
    The crown won't cease to be in Scotland as is the case with many overseas countries.

    The act of union of 1707 isn't actually a constitutional act that is to say it doesn't interfere with the continuity of state or the nature of it if you will.
    It's really more an agreement amongst the house that Scotland should be integrated to share pre existing institutions as well as a variety of other things.
    And by the way it isn't what actually brought Scotland into union with England.

    No.
    The crown will still be present in both Wales and Ulster. After all you can't be prince of Berkshire because it's a county and not a nation.

    I suggest that you take the time to actually understand as to how the UK is actually constituted as what you've written seems incredibly sloppy.
     
  24. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    So what? We're talking about now.


    Everything you need to know:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldselect/ldconst/188/18805.htm
     
  25. Vlad Ivx

    Vlad Ivx Active Member Past Donor

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    The Bank of England is indirectly part of the UK government so what difference does it make?

    We shall see what happens after September 18.
     

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