Britain is to follow Sweden and to vote on recognising Palestine http://www.lbc.co.uk/uk-mps-to-vote-on-recognition-of-palestine-98578 and Scotland is suggesting they have their first European Consulate in Edinburgh http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...-in-edinburgh-says-holyrood-minister.25565062
From reading last night I think there is a good chance of it going through. The good side is that they need to be accepted so that people can start working for them. The bad side is that at the moment it is unlikely to change the attitude of Westminster - but it may start to get things moving. The Scottish Parliament has more support for the Palestinians than Westminster.
Here is some more information. Cameron will abstain...that is the Cameron who called Gaza a Prison Camp when he first came to office before he was taught when to keep his mouth shut. The vote will not take place till 10pm tonight and is worded Baroness Warsi has been promoting this. She resigned while Israel was attacking Gaza and we kept quiet http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/13/uk-mideast-palestinians-britain-idUKKCN0I200320141013 Perhaps it is not so bad Cameron abstaining, would be far worse if he voted no! I really hope this goes through. Britain more than anyone else has a moral responsibility here.
The Debate has been going on for a few hours now though Parliament is not in any way full. I shall give you some feedback on what has been said. A representative of the Foreign Office said he had just been in Gaza and was horrified at what he saw. 100,000 people are homeless and almost half a million without water. He said it was the intention of the British Government to recognise Palestine at a time when it would lead to peace, that that could only be chosen once and that it was very important to choose it at the right time....and for the moment he thought negotiations between them would be best... Most people in the house are clearly for recognition. I do not know whether a whole lot more will appear when it is time for the vote but certainly as far as those in the house are concerned, the majority are for recognising a Palestinian State. Many people see the situation as apartheid, others far worse and it was rightly acknowledged that Israel herself is starting to say two states are no longer possible with the suggestion that this will lead to increased bloodshed for the Palestinians to bare. The Documentary we had a few nights ago where previous Shin Bet members said that apart from Rabin, Israeli Leader's had never been interested in finding a solution and basically for Israel's own sake someone needs to push them. She was going to win all the battles and lose the war. This was mentioned by several people. Other people suggested it would make not one bit of difference which way the vote went. There was also talk of our position, particularly The Balfour Declaration which although it went by it's promise to create a Jewish Home, did not go by the stipulation that nothing should be done to harm the civil and religious rights of those already there. Much has been spoken on this and the suffering and lack of rights they have endured for over 60 years. Hamas was spoken about but any conception that Hamas is a block on a two state solution was put to one side, given that when Israel began she was divided three ways, Haganah, Stern and Irgun. Even today it is not much better someone says, what with Jewish Home which makes UKIP look like an Internationalists party and that they are in Government was underlined with amazement and laughter. One Conservative was just speaking before I left. He had taken a tour of the West Bank spoken to Breaking the Silence and so on and was in no doubt that recognising was the right thing. I was quite impressed at the number who seem to have been to the West Bank and that this has support from all parties. That is what is going on. Some time till the vote. If as I say it is just the people in Parliament then it will be a yes, but I have a suspicion a whole lot more will sneak in for the vote.
Just to have Channel 4 News discussing the Balfour Declaration was a start. The cracks in the zionist propaganda wall are starting to show,
The Documentary we had a few nights ago where previous Shin Bet members said that apart from Rabin, Israeli Leader's had never been interested in finding a solution and basically for Israel's own sake someone needs to push them. She was going to win all the battles and lose the war. This was mentioned by several people. Other people suggested it would make not one bit of difference which way the vote went. There was also talk of our position, particularly The Balfour Declaration which although it went by it's promise to create a Jewish Home, did not go by the stipulation that nothing should be done to harm the civil and religious rights of those already there. Much has been spoken on this and the suffering and lack of rights they have endured for over 60 years.
OK This was a back bench motion which is why Cameron and all members of the Cabinet abstained. The Motion called on the Government to recognise the State of Palestine alongside the State of Israel with the amendment by Jack Straw to make recognition part of a two state solution. It passed by 274 votes to 12 against so the UK Government has now been called upon to recognise the Palestinian State and to be frank from what people were saying and the hundreds of people MP's had had contacting them, this is to use Dianne Abbots words 'the settled will of the British people' As far as I am aware that does not mean the Government needs to follow it but it certainly lets them know where the British people stand.
Interesting that the against did not put up tellers to try to avoid the public knowing who the 12 were.
They made it very clear Margot that they did not believe that Israel was going to make the required moves unless pressured to do so. All evidence was against this. The massive settlements, the massive overkill in Gaza this summer and at the end of that nothing sorted, just the announcement of more settlement building. Also Bedouin's being evicted from E1 and the reality that that removes the possibility of a contiguous two states etc. They also believed their debate would make a difference. We are the people who were in charge of Palestine when this happened so we should speak up they said. They said the Palestinians were listening to the debate and that it gave moral authority to the Palestinian State. With such a massive majority it is going to be hard for the Government not to pay attention.
I personally think that the majority of people around the world support the two state solution. A symbolic vote like the UK is moving the goal an inch along, but "moral victory" does squat in the face of political and military realities. there's a lot more work to do. what I find rather disingenuous is that there are many Palestinians supporters who refuse to acknowledge the roles of both the Palestinians and Arab leadership in exacerbating the problems. Seems they only want to focus on the evils of Israel, refuse to acknowledge that Israel's security concerns are legitimate, have no trouble in extending trust where none has previously existed, and seem to think that Islamist hatred will evaporate as soon as a Palestinian state is created. I personally support the two state solution. I believe in land swaps to compensate for "facts on the ground" including the fact that gaza and WB are not physically connected and have not been since 1948, and a non-militarized Palestine is absolutely necessary. Anyway good on the UK parliament for at least doing their little bit to inch forward.
Side note - the Beduween live no where near E1, E1 is in the WB and just outside Jerusalem, no one lives there, the issue there was an attempt to annex it. The Beduween live in the Negev desert area, their issue is unofficial housing in several locations that were never (not even during the Ottomans) got permits to those areas, that's another topic.
They recognized it - but didnt recognize it...., if Bibi doesnt shake his butt toward a solution - and by that he will have to take a step againt the settelments parties - the entire world need to officially recognize Palestine and start real pressure, if Bibi lasts in power by then that is...
The Negev Beduween are Israeli citizens and serve in the army so you must be talking about another time period and certain part of the Beduween.
Some Bedu have served in the army... but they have consistently gotten the shaft... Destroying their truck farms is pretty despicable............. Oh right.. They don't have "permits" and can't get permits.
What "shaft" ? lol, you make it sound as if they have no place to live, they have permits and permanant housing, they dont get to claim every piece of land they wander into, its state land and we have regulations, its not the wild west..
The state moves them around.. and won't recognize their villages or allow them to hook up to water and electricity.. Look how their numbers have been reduced..
The un-official dont get recognize, the official ones did...that's the idea, why should the state hook up "illegal villages" ?
Rubbish : Here are The Facts About Bedouin Settlement in the Negev Prof. Oren Yiftahel, each of which relies on primary sources. Says No to a Dangerous Plan that Would Push Agrarian Bedouin Society into Towns of Unemployment, Economic Distress and Despair The Bedouin are already one of Israel’s poorest and most discriminated-against sectors. As with any extremely poor demographic they suffer from myriad social ills that result from their situation. But at least the Bedouin in the unrecognized villages manage to eke out a living from agriculture. Forcing them into urbanized towns unsuited to agriculture will sever them from basic sources of livelihood, sentence them to unemployment and exacerbate what is already severe socioeconomic distress. The government plans to replicate tenfold the economic failure of the town of Rahat and its ilk, at great expense. We will see mansions that look good on the outside, and families mired in unemployment and social crisis within, alongside neighborhoods of tin shanties – the homes of those who could not afford to build. The ones to pay the price will be first and foremost the Bedouin, but the rest of the Negev residents will suffer, too. Attorney Rauya Aburabiya, head of the Negev Arab Bedouin population rights division at the Association for Civil Rights: “…why does the State seek to wipe out the villages and force on them a solution that has already failed in the past? The seven permanent Bedouin settlements in the Negev are a failed model. Those towns stand out only for their position at the basement of all socioeconomic indicators. Nobody wants to live there, including the residents of the unrecognized villages. They prefer to live without water or electricity supply rather than a lowly formalized town…” 1. They’re not taking over the Negev The Bedouin constitute about 30% of the Negev population, and demand recognition of their ownership over only 5% of the area’s land. The counterargument is that it is not clear how much of the territory is already built up or available for residence. So let us compare only residential territory. We will compare cities to cities and villages to villages They do not lack ownership of the land: The State contends that the Negev land has been ownerless since the Ottoman period, but the available testimony shoes the opposite: The early Zionist writings; Ottoman and British documents; purchase contracts of land by Jews from Bedouin; and even the reports by the State’s own expert – these all point unmistakably to Bedouin ownership of extensive Negev lands. Now the details. First, the “Dead Negev” Law: The State’s position is based on the Dead Negative Doctrine. The rightist jurist Plia Albeck claims that the Negev is “dead” land, i.e. ownerless, and has been so since the Ottoman period. The Historical testimony: 1. The Ottomans actually recognized Bedouin ownership of the land: If the area lands were “dead” in Ottoman eyes, as the State now claims, there would be no need to purchase them. Yet the Ottomans treated them as the property of the tribes, and even bought from the Muhmadin tribe the land to build the modern city of Beer Sheva (Azazma clan) in 1899 (Braslevski, 1950; Al-Araf, 2000; Garddus and Stern, 1079; Kerk, 2002). 2. The early Zionists recognized Bedouin ownership of their lands: Early Zionist Zalman David wrote in his journal To the Land of Our Fathers that the Bedouin held much land in the Negev and were prepared to sell cheaply to the Jewish settlers. He recommended making the Negev the focus of Jewish settlement because of the availability of land and the positive Bedouin attitude. This was documented in the late nineteenth century: even before Herzl wrote The Jewish State these Bedouin had invited the Jews to come live near them. (Naively ) ===== So how did we get from history to today’s unrecognized villages? The process of dividing the land into zones of authority by tribe, clan and family is important – it forms the social-property basis of today’s unrecognized villages. As geographer Avinoam Meir describes, within those tribal areas the Bedouin settlements developed over the last few centuries. The switch to agriculture as the economic focus led to conflict with existing settlements, which also contained groups of tents; over the years beykas were built (mud-brick houses, storage buildings and livestock shelters) and later, stone houses. Read full article Rabbis for human rights : http://rhr.org.il/eng/2013/05/again...-facts-about-bedouin-settlement-of-the-negev/ ... cheers. .
People support it but are very aware that it is running out as a possibility. Genuine concern was expressed that in that we would see a bloodbath against the Palestinian people. Taking Gaza the situation seems to just have got worse and worse. Jews for Justice for Palestinians was formed I think during or just after Cast Lead when some British Jews felt their conscience could no longer just stand back passively to what Israel was doing. This last and much worse attack this summer is too much for almost everyone....and of course the suffering goes on and on in Gaza. Very true. Our Government sounds as if it is prepared to continue much the same as before. What it had decided before was to allow Israel to do whatever she wanted wrongly believing that eventually demography would result in her making a deal. Pressure must now be put on the Government. On the other side I did not know this at the time but apparently the Labour party ordered a three line whip for people to attend and to vote for recognition. The Leader of Labour is himself a Jew with a mum who is a member of jfjfp. Now clearly if Labour were to get into power next May that could create a very different situation. It looks however as if we will not have any party with an overall majority and they will either go as a minority government or it will be a mix of something like The Conservatives with LibDems and UKIP (God help us) or possibly Labour with the Scottish Nats - we intend on sending as many as possible. However that is one way and in reality returns Labour to the viewpoint it had prior to 9/11 - that Israel must feel pressure to bring some justice for the Palestinians. - much more difficult now though. With the Summer Gaza season I do not hold the Palestinians responsible but I am not going to go back into that. I believe that the thing was engineered by Israel as she did not like the threat of a Palestinian Unity particularly as the Palestinians were being looked on in increasingly friendly terms as they had gone by the rules of the 2012 truce considerably more than Israel without receiving benefits. Other countries were discussed but really this is seen as something coming 66 years too late and needing to come regardless of anything else. There will never be a right time but at least now there is still something to call a Palestinian State. Some of the 12 No's tried to regurgitate the usual Israeli arguments about Hamas but they were given short shift and asked if they had an Israeli briefing they were reading. That being said everyone said it was not against Israel or Israeli's right to exist. Some people believed that anyone would act as the Palestinians did if in their situation and they also pointed out the terrorism of Israel which led to the British leaving and abandoning the Palestinians. One man's father gave his seat in a vehicle to a friend who wanted to meet a lady in town. He was attacked and killed. There was some talk of issues like this. This did not stop Israel getting a State so why Palestine, they said. Further Israel now has an extremely dangerously minded party in Government, Jewish Home. No none of this and the point was made that no one would want to harm Israel's security - just that the Palestinians deserved some themselves, that they deserved the same rights as Israel, that there was great fear for what would happen to them as Israel keeps on expanding and that one way where they could help was to recognise Palestinian as a State alongside Israel and work for that to come to fruition. As I said they mentioned the Documentary we had at the weekend where several ex Shin Bet leaders stressed that the only Israel Leader who had been interested in finding a solution was Rabin and something had to be done to get them to realise this must be or they would have won all the battles but lost the war. Time and again people said they had to save Israel from herself.
Balloney, Salami and Mortadella... Mr Cameron stated that he will abstain and urged his Government to do so... No one knows yet if the <pantless Scots> will follow... http://www.meforum.org/ http://www.facebook.com/Middle.East.Forum http://twitter.com/meforum http://www.meforum.org/rss.xml http://www.meforum.org/list_subscribe.php Follow the Middle East Forum MEF Home | Research & Writings | Donate Red-Green Sweden Recognizes Palestine as 'State' ~by Michel Gurfinkiel PJ Media October 10, 2014 http://www.meforum.org/4851/red-green-sweden-recognizes-palestine-as-state http://www.meforum.org/4851/red-green-sweden-recognizes-palestine-as-state#print http://www.meforum.org/article_send.php?id=4851 http://www.meforum.org/rss.xml Share: http://www.facebook.com/share.php?u...ed-green-sweden-recognizes-palestine-as-state https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?so...d-Green+Sweden+Recognizes+Palestine+as+'State' http://www.meforum.org/4851/red-green-sweden-recognizes-palestine-as-state http://www.meforum.org/facebook_lik...ed-green-sweden-recognizes-palestine-as-state http://www.meforum.org/facebook_lik...ed-green-sweden-recognizes-palestine-as-state Be the first of your friends to like this. A Swedish MP wearing a keffiyeh that displays the whole of Israel replaced by a single state of Palestine. It would be farfetched to expect most political leaders to be thoroughly knowledgeable of the issues they deal with, especially when it comes to international affairs; or to expect them to be particularly rational and ethical. Still, the new Swedish cabinet's decision to recognize "Palestine" as a state must be singled out for its nastiness and nuttiness. Prime Minister Stefan Löfven, who leads a minority "Red-Green" coalition of social democrats and greens, explained the move in the following terms: The conflict between Israel and Palestine can only be solved with a two-state solution, negotiated in accordance with international law. A two-state solution requires mutual recognition and a will to peaceful co-existence. Sweden will therefore recognize the state of Palestine. Sweden is a member of the European Union, and members are supposed to coordinate their diplomatic moves, especially on such touchy matters as the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli conflict. So far, the EU has not made any common decision about recognizing Palestine as a state. Sweden's Red-Greens do not seem to be aware of such niceties. One wonders whether the Red-Greens are aware that a state, to be recognized, needs a clearly defined population, a clearly defined territory, and an effective government that can maintain law and order. None of the above is true of "Palestine," whatever the current meaning of that word. The Palestinian Authority (PA) an autonomous authority established in 1994 according to a Declaration of Principles between the state of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (the Oslo Accords), and the closest thing to a "state of Palestine" does not effectively rule the West Bank and Gaza, the two distinct territories that pass as "Palestinian territory." As an effective government, the PA should be able to maintain law and order there. Everybody knows this is not the case in Gaza, which has been controlled by Hamas and Islamic Jihad since 2007. Yet this is hardly the case in the West Bank, either. Parts of it are still administered by Israel and enjoy Israel's Supreme Court-monitored law and order. In other parts of the West Bank, PA rule reduced, for all practical matters, to Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party rule survives only thanks to a modicum of security cooperation with Israel. In response to Prime Minister Löfven's statement, one must ask how the two-state solution can work if one of the considered states the Palestinian state-to-be is openly opposed to it. Hamas and Islamic Jihad clearly say they will never recognize Israel. The nominal PA government and Fatah say they will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state implying their strategy is to turn Israel into a binational state. This implication is coherent with their insistence that the so-called 1948 Palestinian refugees (a population they estimate as six million people) must be granted the right to return to Israel proper. When combined with the 1.7 million Israeli Arabs, this number would overwhelm the 6.6 million Israeli Jews. A two-state solution is even more fictitious in the light of last summer's Gaza-Israel war. Hamas and Islamic Jihad started that war, resorting to the indiscriminate bombing of Israeli civilian-populated areas and attempts to abduct or kill Israeli civilians. Both sets of operations failed, but the fact remains that they were criminal and genocidal in character. Up, do terror attacks, Rock them, inflict terrible blows, Eliminate all the Zionists, Shake the security of Israel! Aim to make contact with the Zionists, To burn bases and soldiers, Shake the security of Israel, Reveal volcanic flames of fire! A country of weakness and delusion, When it comes to war, they cannot hold out, They blow away like spider's webs, When they meet the valiant! Demolish her down to her foundations, Exterminate the nest of cockroaches, Expel all the Zionists! (Israel) is an illusion, it will not succeed, Its time is past, and it is polluted, Gone, like mice in a parched field, Get close then open fire, all at once! Rock them, now, multitude of missiles, Turn their world into a scene of horrors, Burn into their minds a great miracle: That they are being expelled, and we are going to stay! The criminal and genocidal character of Hamas and Islamic Jihad was further exposed in a song released in Hebrew by Hamas on the Internet in order to demoralize the Israeli population. At left are some of the lyrics (as translated by Yoram Hazony for Tablet). It was written in such terrible Hebrew and sung with such a heavy Arabic accent as to make most Israelis laugh, and the genocide it threatened did not materialize thanks to Israel's military and technological superiority. However, in legal terms the song was glorification of, and incitation to, genocide. PA President Mahmoud Abbas does not fare better in this respect. Instead of distancing himself from the Hamas-initiated war, he granted it political support during his September 26 speech at the UN General Assembly. Pundits have said that Abbas had no other choice, since the Hamas war and Hamas itself are currently popular among West Bank residents, his own constituency. There is some truth here. But then again, the reason why the West Bank reacted in such a way is because Abbas' PA has never directed education towards a pro-peace attitude. The PA was explicitly requested to do so by the Oslo Accords and the subsequent road map to peace in 2003. Finally, one wonders whether the Swedish Red-Greens have paid heed to the present upheavals in the Middle East, the disintegration of Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen, and the similarities and links between the Palestinian factions and such groups as Lebanese Hezbollah, Syrian Al-Nusra, and ISIS. What brought Sweden to this new low? Sweden is burdened with unsavory legacies. In the 1930s and the early 1940s, Swedish politics and intellectual life were dominated by a two-headed socialism: the slightly totalitarian social-democrats, and SSS an active left-wing national socialist movement. Under a social-democratic administration, the country passed "social hygiene" laws similar to the Nazi ones, including the forced sterilization of "asocial" or "defective" human beings. It also banned shechitah (kosher ritual slaughtering). The social hygiene laws were not abrogated until the 1970s. The shechitah ban, which stands in opposition to the European Convention on Human Rights, is still in force. Until 1944, social-democratic Sweden sold Nazi Germany the world's best iron ore, a win-win policy that contributed to Sweden's wealth while sustaining a powerful German armament industry. It has been argued that Germany would have otherwise occupied Sweden, but Sweden could then have sabotaged its mining industry and deprived the Germans of much of its iron anyway. Swedish cooperation probably extended Nazi resilience in front of the Allies by at least a year. To whitewash its behavior, after the war Sweden drifted ever more towards left-wing and radical politics both in domestic and international matters. In the 1960s and especially under Olof Palme in the 1970s and 1980s, Sweden became a champion of the Third World and a critic of American foreign policy. This move, conveniently enough, included increasing hostility toward Israel. Sweden has indiscriminately and masochistically welcomed immigrants and asylum seekers of all kinds. As a result, 15% of the current Swedish population (1.5 million of 10 million) was born abroad, and 27% of the population (2.7 million) is fully or partially of foreign descent. Two-thirds of thèse immigrants arrived from Third World countries or from South-East Europe. In many respects, the Muslim community is now the pivot of Swedish politics. Most Muslims tend to vote for left-wing parties and thus help them to survive in spite of the global turn to the right. More significantly, 5% to 7% of the present population (500,000 to 700,000) is Muslim. In many respects, the Muslim community is now the pivot of Swedish politics. Most Muslims tend to vote for left-wing parties and thus help them to survive in spite of the global turn to the right. At the same time, Muslim assertiveness has helped a dormant SSS constituency to resurface as the Swedish Democrats, capturing back a sizable part of the electorate and thus depriving the classic Right and the centrists of a working majority at the Riksdag, Stockholm's parliament. In the September 14 general election returns, the Red-Greens won 138 seats out of 349. Even with the support of the more doctrinaire Left Party, they would garner only 159 seats. The Right and center would garner 190 seats but that would include the 49 seats of the Swedish Democrats, something the classic conservatives or centrists would not endorse. Doubtlessly, similar situations will arise in more EU countries, including major countries like France, bringing about further confusion and further political and geopolitical nonsense. Michel Gurfinkiel is the Founder and President of the Jean-Jacques Rousseau Institute, a conservative think-thank in France, and a Shillman/Ginsburg Fellow at Middle East Forum.
While it is true that I was wrongly informed by someone it was the same as in Sweden, you are also wrong. You clearly ignored all the rest of the thread simply to come in, in a bait. About half the number of people I heard speak were Tories. One said he had been a friend of Israel far longer than he had been a Tory and that if people like him were now feeling they had to speak up against Israel then Israel was indeed in trouble. Cameron was abstaining because it was a Backbench debate and members of the Cabinet cannot take part in backbench debates. They are to debate and then demand of the government. Here is what this one was on "The Motion called on the Government to recognise the State of Palestine alongside the State of Israel with the amendment by Jack Straw to make recognition part of a two state solution." Here is the result "It passed by 274 votes to 12 against" The government is asked to recognise a Palestinian state by a massive majority. That massive majority represented hundreds and hundreds of emails and letters sent from constituents to MP's. That majority was the will of the British people. If Labour win power in the next election, likely this will be put into action. dream on while you can.
You have no idea of what you are propagating. The Idea of a two state i.e. Belgium or Canada would be a smooth thing to go through. In Israel these are two different peoples speaking two different languages and the Arab residents are not really indigenous to the country when they have and own 21 other <ARAB> countries. This is the Land of Israel <the only Jewish Patrimony>... These two peoples have different aspirations and the Israelis cannot/would not trust people that have been programmed from crib to maturity to hate Jews. Israel cannot afford a bunch of <Fifth Columnists> in their midst. Israel is far from self immolation. People all over the world should understand that Jews need to be independent from turbulent decisions based on oil. An acceptance of a so called Palestinian state will end in a bloodbath the like of which we are trying to avoid.
