Only a Palestinian State ensures Israel's survival

People have been saying this for years but Israel refused to listen

Instead she listened to this

http://jfjfp.com/?p=65471

Now most people think a one state solution is the only possibility

a two state solution is the only possibility which ensures Israel's survival. She may not have much time left to make that decision

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4581654,00.html

If she wants to keep Israel she had better get wise fast.....or is it already too late?

 

The Jewish home's chairman, Naftali Bennet, said it clear and also have an existing plan, that say clearly that area C, that Isreal is already controling it will be annexed to Israel (well this is the only thing that left to do with area C) and area A and B Israel will leave it to the Arabs to do whatever they pleased with it. That is the general idea of his plan. And yet Lefties and the Arabs refuse it.

One state solution is not the only possibility because in that way, that all of the Arabs will be a Israeli citizens, Isreal will stop to exist as a "Jewish state" and will be more like State of all its citizens, like America. Israel with the "one state solution" will lose it's identity.

As long as "partys" like Hamas is ruling the Arabs 0 solutions will be with this conflict! because of the simple fact that organizations like Hamas are soppurting killing Jews and soppurting scumbags as Hitler (= Hamas Charter).

The recognition by UK that happened not long ago is a symbolic action and of course let us not forget that this recognition came after the disappearance of the main party in the British parlament, or in other words- The Conservative and Unionist Party didnt vote!
that action from Cameron's party came to soppurt Israel.

 

two-state solution is dead.

there's no way Israel can bring back hundreds of thousands of settlers to Israel.

the only solution now, is for Israel to annex the West Bank, give all residents Permanent Residency status which CANNOT be lost simply by leaving the territory, and allowing individual Palestinians to apply for citizenship.

if they have never been convicted of terrorism-related charges, they get citizenship.

if they have been convicted, they have to do some community service in Israel or with Jews, and sign a waiver that if they ever again are convicted of terrorism related charges, that lose their citizenship and go back to being Permanent Residents.

most Palestinians will qualify for citizenship right away. Once they start voting, they will vote in more Muslims to the Knesset and left-wing Jews. This will eventually make Israel a TRUE democracy.

 

This idea will be accepted by no one outside Israel. The intention is to steal 64% of the West Bank (area C) and leave the Palestinians Bantustans. It is more than likely though what Israel would offer if felt compelled to offer a Palestinian State and that is why the British Parliament was criticised and told it must ask for the occupation to end rather than a Palestinian State.

This is true and this is where Israel is heading through her settlement activity and her refusal to honour Oslo.

Hamas is not that bad. I don't agree with the OP where he says

This just sounds like propaganda. Of course by refusing to talk to Hamas, as warned by the International Crises Group some years ago, this has given rise for Jihad Salafis in Gaza. Hamas though has been able to keep them largely under control. Obviously Israel starting her war on Gaza stopped the flow of the Unity Government which would have allowed Fatah some control in Gaza. Not sure exactly how that is supposed to work out. Some talk of her guarding the border to Egypt so that they can get out. This still ought to happen once some things get sorted out on the Palestinian side, though I think Israel will try to stop it. Will need to keep an eye on that.

The Cabinet could not vote because it was a backbench bill and they are not allowed to vote. Although being told by the Government not to attend several Conservatives did attend and most voted to acknowledge the Palestinian State. The Labour Government told those who attended that it expected them to vote Yes. They all did. We have a general election in 8 months. If Labour get into power, which they could on a minority Government supported by the Scottish Nationalists, looks like they will make this official British Policy. France has also indicated that they may move that way soon. Of course as spoken above, given that Israel may offer tiny bantustans, it will be necessary to say that what must happen is that the occupation ends.

I think it would be correct to say that although the vote was symbolic, it is a reading of where Europe is swiftly moving.

 

There is one possible solution, one that i have mentioned before.

Israel pulls all settlers back to the Seperation Barrier, and gives the Arabs everything east of it.

that would give the Arabs 92% of the West Bank.

i dont know how many settlers live east of the wall, but its probably less than 100,000.

 

It would be very costly and possibly cause civil war. Makes a mockery though of the years Israelis were telling me as soon as they got their resolution, they would be getting out.

She cannot by International Law annex the West Bank without giving all Palestinians Citizenship. That is one of the reasons the annexation of Jerusalem is not recognised internationally.

You know when the EU got the PIJ to do talks on how to get a two state solution in 2008, they suggested that some of the settlers who had not been involved in criminal activity against the Palestinians be offered the possibility of staying in their homes if they wanted.

I think your heart is in the right place here but a) as I said for annexation, they all need citizenship right away b) if we are talking of crime then you cannot ignore the settlers and c) Gaza must be included. The PIJ suggested something like the South African Truth and Reconciliation for working out past traumas.

(now I must go to bed!)

 

Total in the West Bank is around 350K. Israel gave up Gaza and look what happened. They will not give up the West Bank where there is only 10 miles between the West Bank and the Sea with the most populous area of Israel inbetween. Especially after what happened with Gaza.

The two state solution is no solution to the violence that Muslims have promised.

 

oh, i never said Israel's annexation of the land west of the barrier was legal.

im only saying that if they did do this, and abandon everything east of it, it would show the world, the Arabs, and the Palestinians that conquering and ruling the West Bank is not their agenda or desire.

- - - Updated - - -

well, then Israel must annex the West Bank and offer citizeship to all who want it.

 

Why?

Why would they have to? Are you suggesting Jews couldn't live in a Palestinian state? Are you saying being Jewish would be against the law?

Nope and that will never happpen.

Or ship them to one of the terror sponsoring countries......

Israel is a democracy and you suggest that it should hand that over to a people who you don't think would run one. Why do you hate democracy?

 

let me guess: you want to ship all the Arabs to Jordan. amiright?

 

no and I know no one who does.......

So please answer are you supporting a Jew Free Palestinian state?

 

of course not.

all Jews willing to become loyal citizens of Palestine should be allowed to.

 

Although that may seem like a good deal to you, they have already given up 78% of their land. They are expecting 100% of what is due them as per the agreement in Oslo when settlement activity was supposed to stop. They certainly deserve that - just 22% of their Ancestral homeland.

 

we all expect things in life that we can't have.

 

In other words a real DEMOCRACY - instead of the present Racist "Jewish state " - right ?

"Here's another option "The no-State solution for Israel and Palestine"

A Jewish state can be realized either by a separate Israeli state alongside a Palestinian one, or by a Greater Israel one state. Palestinian rights and privileges can be realized either by establishing a separate Palestinian state, or by a secular bi-national one state. Whether the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River is split or kept whole matters less than on whose terms it would be governed. Solutions based on models of the state are not getting us anywhere new.

A real alternative

A real alternative would be to move the debate away from one state versus two states or from how to divide territorial sovereignty. The aim for a peace process would instead start by negotiating each side's national narratives and needs and then later address models of state.

A forward-looking agreement based on these needs would have to address difficult, sensitive and perhaps unavoidably unjust questions, such as: what are Jewish Israelis’ minimum needs in terms of symbolic and political representation - what could be other ways to preserve Jewish self-determination, apart from a Jewish state?

What symbolic steps can Palestinians take to help Israelis feel secure? What is the minimum that Palestinians can accept in terms of refugee return, and how can Israelis endorse the Palestinian right to self-determination? Can both narratives of the conflict be reconciled? This list of questions is not exhaustive, and individual rights and beliefs can never be negotiated away. But these issues cannot be avoided.



Experts from both sides of the Green Line have already begun to think about how some of these questions could be addressed. At a Chatham House workshop earlier this year, working groups of Israelis, Palestinians and internationals debated how and whether the two sides’ national narratives about the Palestinian refugee issue could be reconciled.

While right of return is a core element of the Palestinian national narrative, so far it has clashed with the deeply held Israeli national narrative of Israel as a Jewish state. After two days of intensive discussions, twenty-two different potential ways to reconcile the narratives were proposed. These kinds of debates and potential alternative narratives now need to move out of expert forums into a more mainstream conversation. The media, politicians and educational institutions all have contributed to polarized views in both Israel and Palestine – they equally have the power to encourage publics to consider alternative positions.


source :https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/doris-carrion/nostate-solution-for-israel-and-palestine


....

Some will argue that starting with national narratives and needs is too ambitious and would prevent talks from ever getting off the ground. But for years talks have been increasingly disconnected from realities on the ground, all while the two sides move further away from each other. Tackling identity and self-determination questions head-on could be the only chance to restart a stalled process.

 

Somehow , I doubt many (if any ) settler Jews would be willing to do so .

 

many would, rather than be sent to Israel.

 

Become LOYAL CITIZENS of a separate Palestinian state - . Really ?

Hmmmm.

 

just as unfathomable as Arabs being loyal to Israel, huh?

 

Like justice eh? Israel or the west would anniliate people for such ...but I get your drift - no need to bother about agreements or justice when it comes to the Palestinians. Nothing changed with you then.

 

A few would and have taken the trouble to build relations with the Palestinians and treat them with respect. However most who fit into what you are talking about would only want to chase the Palestinians out as is spoken about on this forum. Those people invariably will have acted towards the Palestinians in a manner which would make it impossible for them to be part of a Palestinian State - nor would they agree to go back to Israel - hence the element who would be likely to create civil war if asked to move.

 

Preposterous nonsense. It wilbe either be another occupation or Israel gets a few more million arab voters respresented in the knesset - thus ending the jewish nature of Israel.

And why on earth should convicts have to do anything extra for Israel? Its nonsense, and they simply wont.

 

The Bennet's plan is not to steal anything! but to "complete what Oslo started", area C accroding to Oslo is under Israeli rule, and the rest of the areas are under "Palestinian" rule, it was agreed by Arafat and Israel.
The Bennet's plan will end the army barriers, and will make the transportation of the Arab population in the West Bank more smooth and like any other people transport themselves from point A to point B in their territory. Would you gonna reject it from the Arabs?

Israel is not heading to "One state solution"! Israel and it's citizens dont want to control over the Arabs in the West Bank! and of course it doesnt happen! The Arabs from areas A and B are been controled by themselves! according to Oslo.
Israel isnt disshonoring Oslo! Israel fulfilling it!! I can give you evidences if you like.

So an organization that use Hitler's words are "not that bad"? how can it be?
Its ok that you are not agreeing withsome of the things that've been written in the Charter but it is not make them unreal! it is still things that Hamas is believing in and want to fulfill, they only want to fulfill what Pan-Arabism desired, while going against a nation that his only motivation to do so is "because they are Jews". and gouting Hitler in their charter is approving it!

Hamas can keep the Arabs in Gaza under control because they are mass executing all of those that Hamas is susspecting that they are agianst them or they are coloborating with Israel, and in the last operation you could see it. In one of the casefire Hamas used it to execute Gazans.
Maybe the operation stopped Fatah to take some control in Gaza at the time of the operation but it didnt stop it completely, because now you can see how Fatah is taking control and coloberating with Hamas in Gaza.

The recognition didnt require Cameron to fulfill it, it was just a symbolic action as you wrote, nothing more.
The Lebour party hasnt have a full agreement about this recognition, so it will need to wait and see if the Lebour party will make it a British policy if they would elected to be in charge.

The status qou that is happening in the West Bank will be solved after a proper agreement that will be respected by both sides.

You could see it after the election that was to the EU that alot of partys with problematic history had been elected. This is not something new, this kind of things is getting rainforcement with the Muslims in Europe.

If you are saying that not "two states solution" not "one state solution will get this conflict somewhere new, so what is your solution to this conflict? I mean the Arabs want, or at least they say it poblicly, they want a "two state solution", and if this is not a real solution, what is? according to you of course.

One of the "national narratives" that the Arabs have is refering to Jerusalem, something that either sides want to give up on that. As the talks about one state solution or two states will not get us anywhere also the talks about the "national narratives" will not get us anywhere, maybe more bloodshed. Like Oslo was trying to accomplish (=debated about the "national narratives") that but without luck! Oslo brought upon Israel only more bloodshed as "the second Intifadah", that was lead by Arafat, the one that signed Oslo Accrods.

 

Israel annexing Area C would lead to severe economic sanctions upon Israel.

 

Under Oslo Israel maintained temporary control over area C. It never was for Israel. Israel has n o legal rights over it and it is the Palestinians land. He is lying to you. You want to lose all of Israel, carry on as you are thinking.

It obviously is not me to speak for the Palestinians but I think I can safely tell you that knowing as I do that this man intends of stealing Area C 62% or so of the West Bank, it is a non starter if you do not want to see yourselves only able to trade with Egypt. This is the Palestinians land. You have no right there. Remove yourself before ISIS comes and does it for you.

They are not in control of themselves, their right to work their land, their right to work without being attacked, their right to work without the fruits of their labour being destroyed. You are on someone else's land. I think by the law of war they have the legal right to kill you but instead you have kept them in hell, killing them when you want and annoying them so much that occasionally they express their anger. Then your Government annihilates them. You have no knowledge of the rule of law or how to treat your fellow being - either that or you are ignorant on everything.

How long ago was Oslo supposed to have been completed and all that land handed back to the Palestinians with no more settlement building? Your country has no belief in the rule of law. She believes she can treat people whose land she colonised as dogs and then kill them when they fight back and not infrequently when they do not fight back. When she aims at one who has fought back and kills as well several children she does not mind at all....and she wonders why people get mad.

Hamas was perfectly capable of being reached. A British Agent, Alistair Crooke worked with them around 2002-3. He had very specialised skills at working with people in the situation Hamas and the PA at that time were in having worked in NI and in Afghanistan to get peace. When he had got a relationship going with him where he believed that he could get them into talks, he was suddenly told to leave. The choice was made to wrongly equate Hamas with Al Qaeda and to refuse further negotiations with Hamas or anyone else. Istead Israel was going to do this only by Military means either by arresting and putting in prison political opponents or assassinating them. Likewise she kills regularly more and more innocent civilians as she destroys Gaza time and again to give herself a high. Even past leaders of Shin Bet have come out and correctly said that not one of her leaders apart from Rabin was ever interested in a solution, and this is particularly true since Rabin. They believe you are going to win all the battles but you are going to lose the war - you are going to lose Israel.

When your government refuses to engage in talks with people who are being assisted in order to help with a way to communicate between the two by an expert and instead chooses to kill to her hearts desire because she has the weapons and they do not, when she does this while stealing the land of those people and not going by agreements, when she chooses to kill and injure thousands of Palestinians and make their land uninhabitable because of what two or three people not connected to them do don't talk to me about who is acting in a Nazi way.

Quit the Hitler talk because frankly I believe Israel to be the one acting far nearer him than any Palestinian. The Charter was a response to the Likud one of 1970 something so do not start pretending that Israel's are not just as good as giving that line.

Regarding what you speak about above

http://www.geneva-accord.org/mainmenu/interview-with-alistair-crook

and in another you broke it to murder one of your own and at least 200 Gazans and destroy a large area near Rafa I think and then you had the gaul to pretend it was Hamas just so you could murder some more children.

I hope they manage it. It will be easier for us to help them which of course your leaders know. Hence your last rampage committing what Ban Ki-moon describes as 'A Shame on Humanity'

I will tell you something. The Cabinet did not come but they sent a Foreign service spokesperson who had just been in Gaza. He was disgusted with what you had done to those people. It is true that at the moment they are claiming the right to wait for the right time but it is also true that they said not a good word about you. You have few friends left here and are even losing those who shut their eyes for all these years. I really do not care what you think, I am just glad knowing the shift has been made and people recognise the importance of making moves very soon.

That will never happen. People know that now. They see no need to wait for you and no need to equate this for peace. You have been harming the original people of the land you have colonised for far too long. Like I said you are losing your very staunchest supporters even people who had family involved in your creation. People who refused to see what you were doing but no longer can. - trust me they may be your worst enemy's. I think it was one of them who pointed out that we need to make sure Gaza gets control of her Gas - many people believe the discovery of that was the reason for your mass killing in Cast Lead.

It is true that there were far right parties of differing degrees elected to the European Parliament. The Conservatives who you seem to think are your best hope are losing their MP's to ours and now claiming they are both much the same. Even talk of forming a coalition after the election. The British MP's who are calling you out are not those type of people. They are though people who know you very well and have in the past helped you. The Leader of Labour by the way is a Jew.