As I've Posted On This Forum Before:

I've pulled my duty. By the time I was five years old my maternal grandmother was already working hard on my brainwashing. If I did something a little naughty or against her personal belief she would say, "Old Scratch Will Get You!"
Old Scratch is what she called Satan. She would walk over a mile in the snow to make church services on a Wednesday evening or Sunday Morning.

In grammar school, 3rd and 4th grades my west TN teachers would begin each day with the pledge of allegiance and the Lord's Prayer. On Mondays they assigned each student a bible verse to memorize and recite back to the class on Thursday or Friday. I read the bible through while I was still in my teens. I had read the new testament no less than ten times while I was in my twenties. I was baptized in a Baptist church before a congregation of nearly a thousand on a Sunday morning in the spring of 1957. I was a Sunday school teacher, a member of the building committee and the Brotherhood. I worked with RA Boys and coached one of their baseball teams. I was a substitute usher. I spoke with personal testimony in nearby small churches. I visited the sick on Tuesday evenings and twice a year we visited a prison. We tithed our gross. I walked the walk.

I used to sit in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings and look around at the faces of others and wonder if they doubted the way I did. I was two-faced until I was over sixty years old. After I retired I made a major decision. I did not want to keep living a lie.....I never believed all that ancient fiction.

After I stopped living that lifestyle I can't begin to tell you how much better I feel. I do not say a word about religion till somebody else starts it.....then I tie into them and show them how ignorant they are. I had most of the new testament memorized chapter and verse while I was still in my twenties and 90% of Christians don't know schit about the bible. Most have a few favorite verses and listen to the self serving messages from a preacher when they go to church on Sundays but that's usually it. I love to see the look on their faces when I confront them with a couple of verses which absolutely state the opposite of something they have declared.

The good news is that primitive beliefs are on their way out. The organized brainwashing of young, innocent, gullible children by their adult church goers is the reason it's still alive. You can teach a child anything. For thousands of years cannibals taught their young to consume human flesh as a religious ritual. Ironically they were converted from their faith to another one which consumes a cracker and some grape juice to simulate eating flesh and drinking blood. It's all a work in fiction written by primitive sheep herders who believed in witches and thought the earth was flat. Again....I've just had my 80th birthday and I've seen a lot during the last 75 years. The thing that pleases me most is the results of studies like this one. There's still hope:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/

Survey: One in five Americans has no religion

By Dan Merica

Washington – The fastest growing "religious" group in America is made up of people with no religion at all, according to a Pew survey showing that one in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion.

The number of these Americans has grown by 25% just in the past five years, according to a survey released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

The survey found that the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing even faster among younger Americans.

Thirty-three million Americans now have no religious affiliation, with 13 million in that group identifying as either atheist or agnostic, according to the new survey.

Pew found that those who are religiously unaffiliated are strikingly less religious than the public at large. They attend church infrequently, if at all, are largely not seeking out religion and say that the lack of it in their lives is of little importance.

 

I do have to question the mental stability and intellect of those who still believe in the ancient Jewish myths.

Clearly there is no evidence that there are any forms of gods, and I think can reasonably call religious folks delusional, to the point of being mentally ill. The Christian religion, like others, seems to rely on perpetuation of myths through tales of events that may or may not have happened thousands of years ago, yet folks still adhere to such things, claiming that through chanting to these non existent beings (whom never respond via text, phone call, or Twitter) miraculous happenings occurred, but not such things as folks coming back to life or regrowing lost limbs.

As a recovered Christ cultist myself, I do applaud those, such as yourself, that can stand up and say that the emperor indeed is nude as the day he was born. Let us hope that more folks shake the delusions that grip their mind and realize fairies just don't exist.

 

RIGHT ON!!!

The egotistical and arrogant self centered idea that one individual of the seven billion on this planet is personally of interest to the creator of the universe when the most arduous task they do is shop for condiments in a local Walmart is absolutely beyond belief!!

I can hardly wait till they meet their ghost pal floating on a cloud, fly off to live in a gated community singing hymns while all of us who simply hold a different belief burn in a lake of fire and brimstone......c'mon, they must be trying to schit us!!

 

One has to wonder if secular humanism, which is atheistic will be able to condition humans into being responsible, and socially responsible, with a set of ethics that is in line with, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? And how successful will this be? As successful as Christianity has been? It just seems to me that as this nation has moved away from religious based ethics, people are more destructive and contentious in their relationships with others. This one on one relationship multiplied by 150 million becomes and forms the backbone of the society. If the one on one relationships are lacking in ethical values, this obviously creates tremendous conflict and disorder which is then reflected in the society. And the society is in chaos and disorder. There is no GOOD in that. It is in fact very destructive.

We can throw the baby out with the bath, if we throw religion out, and along with it goes the moral and ethical values that in the west came from that religion. In those nations that were very atheistic, we see how greatly they disrespected human life, and human beings had little value at all. I don't see secular society preaching or teaching some basic form of morality and ethics. In fact, I see a celebration of egoism. The ego takes the place of a god and a fabricated image of god can never be as destructive as the human ego, to others.

I was raised up just like you, as we are not very far apart in age. And I deserted my religious conditioning as you have done. Yet something replaced it, but it wasn't an organized religion. What replaced it was a path that involved transcending the ego, which creates real morality, and genuine ethical behavior. As well as creating a sane being in an insane society, an insane world. You offered nothing in your negation of your religious conditioning. And atheistic secularism offers nothing in the area of that part of human existence that affects and creates a society. It is a destroyer with nothing offered up to replace the GOOD side of religion. I don't think this is a good thing, but perhaps more destructive over time than religion could ever be.

 

May I use that as my signature? That is brilliant.

Indeed, I remember fishing some years ago for stripers, and there was nothing biting. As I sat alongside a local river, just downstream from me was a father and his son.

The son was trying to catch his first fish. He was maybe 8 or 9 years old. We sat there for a few hours, and all of a sudden the son's pole bent. His father picked the pole up, reeled a bit, and then handed it over to his son who pulled in a maybe 8 inch striped bass. The father simply kept repeating the quote below.

"It's a miracle"

I had to laugh at the level of delusion that made this fellow think that out of the entire universe his mythological being had nothing else to do but command a striped bass to bite into a cut anchovy, whilst at the same time allowing millions of others to die painfully and miserably of disease and famine.

 

Basically I see your post saying, " religious people are so weak that without religion they will turn all evil"

or " religious people without their religion holding them in check are really nasty people ready to turn bad the second they are allowed to"".

 

That is amusing.

Without embracing the delusional belief of the supernatural and complying with the ridiculous requitrements, the chanting, the ritualistic cannibalism of Catholicism, and the rest of the nonsense, people will suddenly become evil.


You know, sometimes folks treat others well simply because they are not (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s, not because they believe in ghosts, leprechauns, and the like.

 

I don't quite agree with your conclusion regarding mental stability. You and I may be okay with being no more than a product of natural selection racing through space on a rock, but I can understand that not everyone is comfortable with that, so they hang on to a belief that gives them a feeling of security.

 

Fair enough.

 

I don't see why it would, given that no other social philosophy, religious or otherwise, has been able to. I know of few individuals capable of actually fulfilling that principle (rather than just mouthing the words) but they've come from all sorts of different backgrounds and beliefs (or lack thereof).

Without aggressive invasions, criminalisation of any other beliefs and fundamental theocracies, I doubt it. Of course secularism, by its very definition, can't be as "successful" as Christianity (or Islam) in that manner. That's one of its plus-points.

If the only reason there are morals and ethics is because of religion, you personally would have no morality or ethics - if you lost your faith, you'd automatically lose all morals and ethics.

That would also mean that I, like the millions of other non-religious people in the world (plus all those who follow a fundamentally different faith to yours), would have no morality or ethics at all. Obviously I don't believe this to be the case but feel free to prove me wrong.

 

This one always quietens them:

Mark

16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

I think there is something to be learned here. It is quite possible to teach morality and ethics without religion. However, such an effort takes time to build up, and it doesn't exist to the same extent that it does in religion. I'm not sure exactly what is required to produce such an effort, but I think seculars should spend more time and effort on that.

 

Just teach the kids to watch the politicians closely and do exactly the opposite of what they do. Ethics my arse.....look at the most exclusive folks at the top rung and if you find half of them with any obvious ethical values I'll kiss your arse in Times Square and give you thirty minutes to gather a crowd. Whatever religion is doing for/to them now sure isn't working.

 

The early Christian Church felt the same about Jewish myths.

" Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables , which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace… Christianity did not embrace Judaism but Judaism Christianity. If any one preach the Jewish law unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine than to Judaism. " http://followingtheancientpaths.fil...ing-split-between-syna-church-1st-century.pdf

These instructions come from the early Christian Church around 107 AD when the Church is still trying to find its identity. Part of that identity was to completely distance itself from Judaism.

 

You mean like Judaism has distanced themselves from Christianity? They don't believe that part about the ghost pal floating on a cloud. What they do believe is written, it is their law:

Old Testament Death Penalty Sins:

•Murder - Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14,20,23; Lev. 24:17,21; Num. 35:16-34; Deut. 19.
•Failing to circumcise - Gen. 17:14; Ex. 4:24,25.
•Eating leavened bread during feast of unleavened bread - Ex.
•2:15,19.
•Smiting Parents- Ex. 21:15.
•Kidnapping - Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7.
•Cursing Parents - Ex. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.
•Negligence with animals that kill - Ex. 21:28-32.
•Witchcraft - Ex. 22:18.
•Bestiality - Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23-29; 20:15,16.
•Idolatry - Ex. 22:20.
•Making holy anointing oil - Ex. 30:33.
•Putting holy anointing oil on strangers - Ex. 30:33.
•Making the holy perfume - Ex. 30:38.
•Defiling the Sabbath - Ex. 31:14.
•Working on the Sabbath - Ex. 35:2.
•Eating the flesh of the peace offerings in
•uncleanness - Lev. 7:20,21.
•Eating the fat of sacrifices - Lev. 7:25.
•Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the tabernacle - Lev. 17:1-9.
•Eating blood - Lev. 17:10-14.
•Incest - Lev. 18:6-29; 20:11-22.
•Eating sacrifices at the wrong time - Lev. 19:5-8.
•Consecration of children to idols - Lev. 20:1-5.
•Spiritualism - Lev. 20:6,27.
•Adultery - Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-30.
•Sodomy/Homosexuality - Lev. 20:13.
•Relationship with a menstruous woman - Lev. 20:18.
•Whoredom - Lev. 21:9; Deut. 22:21,22.
•Sacrilege - Lev. 22:3.
•Refusing to fast on day of atonement - Lev. 23:29.
•Working on atonement - Lev. 23:30.
•Blasphemy - Lev. 24:11-16.
•Failure to keep the Passover - Num. 9:13.
•Presumptuous - Num. 15:30,31.
•Gathering firewood on the Sabbath - Num. 15:32,36.
•Failure to purify self before worship - Num. 19:13,20.
•False prophecy - Deut. 13:1-18; 18:20.
•Leading men away from God - Deut. 13:6-18.
•Stubbornness and rebelliousness - Deut. 21:18-23.
•Gluttony - Deut. 21:20-23.
•Drunkenness - Deut. 21:20-23.
•Backbiting - Deut. 17:2-7.
•False dreams and visions - Deut. 13:1-18.

 

My personal life experience has led me to believe that there is no one home upstairs.

From childhood to 18 yrs old I was raised episcopalian. From 18 to 23 yrs old I was in a position to see some of the many terrible things people do to each other and my faith was severely shaken. It took me a few years to come to terms with some of that, so I got a late start on the whole family life thing. I didn't get married until I was 30, and didn't have my first child until I was 33. My second child was born when I was 35, and he is profoundly disabled. He spent most his first 2 years of life screaming, writhing, unable to eat, sleeping for only a couple of hours at a time. My wife (now ex) and I insisted he was in pain but no-one listened to us for 2 YEARS!! until we finally found a neurologist (an absolutely brilliant man named William Graff currently a professor at the Yale school of medicine) Who said "well, you're his parents, you know him better than any Dr. ever could so lets try some pain medication." Within 20 minutes of the first dose my son was awake and not screaming in pain for the first time in his life.

What kind of creator would allow an innocent child to be born in a state of constant pain, literally writhing in agony every single waking moment, and then not allow anything to be done about it for 2 years? Not even mentioning all the other horrible things I've seen.

I believe there is no supreme being. But if I'm wrong and there is he's got a lot to answer for.

 

I think the only thing that will completely negate religion will be when most of us become immortal. Don't laugh, most scientists say it should be coming in the next few generations. Until then, religion is the only thing that offers us even a chance not to die eventually, and until you find some way to make the average man not fear his eventual end, it will still have its main attraction

There is, however, a Supreme Being

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ig-wrEGtKI

 

First a comment on the Golden Rule - "Do unto others" This rule was the rule that James (Brother of Jesus) called "The Royal Law".

Jesus said (Matt 7) that this rule sums up the entire Law and the words of the Prophets.

Confucius had this rule and the organization of Chinese society was largely based on Confucianism and was successful for over 2000 years.

Hammurabi's law code, which predates Moses by centuries had this rule. Babylonian Society lasted for 3000 years. Perhaps older societies were not as advanced technologically but this does not mean they had not advanced socially. We have regressed in many ways on a social perspective.

In 1800 BC Hammurabi had welfare for widows and the poor. If a farmer had a bad crop year he was given an interest free loan for the next year. "What do you mean ??? they had a banking system 4000 years ago ??" Indeed they did.

The Rule of Law and the justification for legitimacy of authority of our leaders and legal system is based on this rule.

There is few on the face of this planet upon hearing this rule will not nod their head in agreement. "Good Rule". This rule seems simple on the surface but very few understand the depth of this rule.

If Christians, and non Christians would actually follow this rule the world would be a better place. They don't for the most part. Our schools do not teach this rule to our children and they should. A deep understanding of this Rule should be part of every human's education on the planet.

Christianity has been a horrible wreck mainly due to not following this rule. After Constantine for over 1000 years Christianity was a plague on society that committed a raft of horrible atrocities, persecution, discrimination, racism and so on.

The Founders recognized the horrible damage from mixing Christianity with State and so they tried to create a society that separated Church from State. It was this separation that was responsible for the gains in civil and rational behavior.

Christianity was the organization responsible for the downfall of civil and rational behavior

It was the adoption of Secular humanism, both by our founders but also the founders in the rest of the civilized world, that was responsible for gains in civil and rational behavior.

 

The first Christians were Jews. Jesus was a Jew as were the disciples. The Church of Jerusalem (formed by the extant disciples) disappeared.

The Gentile Christians (Paul's bunch) are what survived. Paul never met Jesus, did know hardly anything about the life of Jesus, and did not have much of a relationship with the Church of Jerusalem. It was this group that survived. In essence, the beliefs of Jesus and his followers are in large part lost or long since forgotten.

The thing I like about Judaism is that it teaches to question everything, even God. I truly believe this is why Jews are so smart proportionally. (how is it that roughly half of the worlds Chess Grandmaster Champion's have been Jews ?)

Christianity and Islam teach "don't question". If you question certain parts of religious dogma the child is taught that he/she will be tortured in the afterlife for an eternity.

This ideology has powerful psychological effects on the subconscious. It teaches certain parts of the brain to shut down when confronted with uncomfortable questions.

This ideology is also a form of sophisticated mind control that forms a base that can be exploited for extremist purposes.

 

Why is it that many atheists refuse to acknowledge that many humans NEED TO HAVE FAITH. It provides them with comfort, it answers the most intimate questions of who they are, why they are and what lies beyond since human egocentricity generally rejects the notion that death is the end of individual existence.

My fellow atheists should at least acknowledge this fact. I respect a theist right to believe whatever the hell they want, but I surely dont' respect their religious dogma and actively oppose any efforts on their part to impose such dogma on me or mine.

Atheists have no need to behave to theists as staunch theist do towards atheists. I like to think we are both emotionally and intellectually more mature than them.

 

Well first...I'm agnostic. I'm not a common, ordinary agnostic, I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know and they don't either.

I'm so sorry for the birth condition of your son. Anybody who has never gone through that experience has a clue what it does to you. They don't realize it. If their idea of a supreme being, one which created the universe and everything in it, is the type of Kim Jung Un dictator who has to murder, torture and aggravate...that son-of-a-beetch ain't much punkin. On judgement day I'll look his destructive, murderous face straight on and tell him to kiss my big orange, TN volunteer, coon dawg arse. Shucks...it won't make any difference.....I'm already in deep schit because I don't believe in ghosts...holy or otherwise.

 

Ref.Post #1: The most important point to know is that a person can recite countless verses from memory and read the Bible every day but he will always miss the relevant parts. The best way to read the Bible is to read it carefully and to summarize each section in each chapter in your own words. If people did that they wouldn't think that Adam & Eve were the only humans because later verses clearly state that there were civilizations all around them. They would also know that the Jesus character was a Samaritan and that Paul was an Egyptian. They would also know that the real Ten Commandments are found in Exodus chapter 34. Those details are there but it requires careful reading and critical thinking to see them.

 

it's a bit like the family man who mysteriously brings home enough cash each month to pay the mortgage, send kids to private schools, and buy new cars every 2 years. but when asked by his wife how he earns this money he responds that she doesn't need to know such irrelevant details ... only that it pays for her comforts. however, one day she decides that elective ignorance can be a dangerous form of laziness, so follows him to work. turns out he's a violent drug baron.

 

I suspect the idea is that religious ideation might technically be considered an 'adjustment disorder'. Given that adjustment disorders are a failure to adjust to (as in, accept) the reality of one's life or situation .. with potentially negative consequences. These consequences can be as practical as being unfit for full time employment, reliance on meds, or the most significant - delusional psychosis, with the delusion component arising in place of the unwanted reality.

If you took a single religious person, slightly alter names and events in their dogma so as to render it unrecognisable as an extant religion, then sent them off to the shrink with their story, you would most likely see a diagnosis of some sort. This could mean one of two things .... either we're so inured to idea that religion is 'normal' that we no longer recognise crazy, or the normalising of religion means that it's no longer the province of the village lunatic. Take your pick.

 

So you did your duty by your grandmother walking to church in the snow? What a burden that must have been for you