The Russian Holocaust Far More Terrible Than the Jewish Holocaust?

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by upside-down cake, Oct 29, 2014.

  1. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know or can they provide any amplifying information about this. I have since learned that, indeed, the Russian Holocaust was by far the most terrible holocaust this world has seen and yet, it remains almost invisible to anyone who is not directly made aware of it. I was shocked and wished to know more about it. Does anyone know more of the particulars?
     
  2. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    what do you mean?
     
  3. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    I could imagine he found out that in Russia more people died than in the Nazi prison camps. The word "holocaust" comes from Greek, and means "totally burned". It used to be a religious tradition to sacrifice animals to the gods, by burning them.

    The holocaust really refers to the systematic killing of one specific group: The jewish communities in Europe.
     
  4. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    From the Bolshevik Revolution, onwards, there was a series of brutal killings that may estimate anywhere from the conservative 10 million, to above 20 million people. I was just led into this area so I didn't know much about it, never learned anything about it in school other than that it was communist, and was wondering if I could scoop up some pointers as I head into the subject.

    Things that are not as common as a Wiki look-up or something like that...
     
  5. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Well, great that you finally ran into that information. It's pretty common knowledge, though. Still that doesn't make it into a Holocaust. Read again what the word means.

    The killing wasn't directed towards a specific ethnic group, nor did they burn the victims (at least not to the degree the Germans did).
     
  6. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    The Jews were not a specific people, but a generalization. All types of Jews out there in different countries. Nor where the Jews the exclusive victims of the Holocaust.

    The same for the Russians.
     
  7. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    i´d say more like 40 millions, and i ´d call it for Soviet Holocaust
     
  8. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    As I said before: the word "holocaust" comes from Greek, and means "totally burned". The Holocaust therefore refers to the burning primarily and the systematic killing. True not all victims were Jewish, but if you say "Holocaust" you refer to WW2 and Nazis killing primarily the jewish community. But I agree, there were not only Jews who got murdered.

    Where did you get that number?

    And you can call it however you want, but the definition refers to WW2 thusfar. Maybe that definition will change in time, but for now only WW2 had a Holocaust. I also didn't hear of mass burnings when it came to the Soviet Union.
     
  9. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    how are Jews not a specific people.
     
  10. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    The original meaning of a word and its current application do not always coincide. Three different scenarios of the Holocaust were offered, as well as different numbers for the dead, but in the end the official story settles on gas being the main weapon of the Holocaust. If this is the case, do we rename the Holocaust based on this technicality?

    In the same way Christians are not a specific people...or humans...or Liberals. It's a very broad generalization.
     
  11. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    so are the French or British not a people?
     
  12. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    French and British are as uniform as American. American, being the younger, is made up of the formers, but the formers (Britain, France, and others) are made up of smaller cultures and peoples annexed into the current geopolitical demographic...those that survived. They are an individual people only in so much as we chose to label them as such.

    Another far greater example would be China or Russia. One name, but obiously encompassing a vast amount of different peoples and cultures. However, no one is educated on their past cultures as they are generally unaware of them, and their particular states are not likely to remind people of the long list of peoples smashed together or exterminated in their particular paths to nationalism.
     
  13. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    You misunderstood my point I'm afraid.

    Language changes over time either way. As time progresses different terms appear and old terms change meaning. "Gay" used to mean happy, now it's homosexual. "Holocaust" now refers to WW2 and the Nazis systematic murdering millions of people, but that definition could change in time too. The problem is that you used a word which means something else for something which has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

    The title of this topic is "The Russian Holocaust Far More Terrible Than the Jewish Holocaust". So I understood that you feel that the hundreds of thousands of Russians who got killed in the concentration camps was more terrible than the killing of approximately 6 million Jews. Obviously you didn't mean to say that. So the title of this topic is misleading because we understand something different under the word "holocaust".
     
  14. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    so you are saying they are not a people.

    But you say Russians are a people?
     
  15. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    Millions of Russians....not hundreds of thousands.

    And not just in concentration camps. It might well be that they didn't even bother with concentration camps...
     
  16. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    It's all in the name. They are all people because the name choses to point out similarities from a cultural, biological, or political perspective. Not all of these things are necessary to identify a people. Sometimes it's just one, sometimes all, or whatever kind of mix in between.

    The "Russian" people are a people according to a political similarity in that they are all under the administration of a singular poltical identity, but the the "Russian" peoples consist of a diversity of cutlrual and biological backgrounds.
     
  17. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Genocide is a form of class warfare and German Jews were targeted in Nazi Germany because many Jews took up prominent positions such as college professors and CEOs of major commercial banks. In a way, the Holocaust was a repeat of the Russian Revolution, by which most Russian aristocrats were killed or driven into exile. Nazi Germany also worked hard to liquidate the entire ruling class of Poland upon occupying the country and class resentment common among the working class in pre-war Europe triggered these mass killings and the same pattern was repeated in Cambodia by Pol Pot between 1975 and 1979.
     
  18. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The reason that the "holocaust" involving the alleged extermination of Jews by the Germans in the early '40s is so well publicized is because of the overwhelming majority of filmmakers in Hollywood and New York were and are Eastern European and Russian Jews. Many of them are related to and supported the Bolshevik Commies who definitely murdered at least 5 times as many people as the Nazis were accused of murdering. They are the self chosen and are not really too concerned about mass slaughter of goyim. Cheers
     
  19. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see you picked up quite an impressive load of white nationalist, jew hating, neo-Nazi, holocaust denial garbage along the way here and have piled into one pathetic paragraph.

    cheers yourself.
     
  20. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't hate Jews as I have many Jewish friends. Nor am I a white or any other type of nationalist or supremacist. However regarding the huge, multi billion dollar ad campaign that has been going on for over a half century regarding the so called holocaust, I believe that my comments are right on target. The Hollywood elites are still churning out these crappy, whiny, dishonest holocaust movies every year and they keep getting worse. It is also true that the Jews were over represented in the most murderous regime in history, the Soviets under Stalin. Just as most Germans were not complicit in Hitler's idiotic plans, most Jews are not complicit in this holocaust industry. However, I believe that young Jewish children are bombarded with this crap, along with this phony "chosen ones" garbage from early childhood which tends to make many of them arrogant, paranoid, whiny professional victims many of whom are quite hateful and spiteful, which is no surprise considering the way they are indoctrinated into this bull crap.

    Cheers
     
    ejca and (deleted member) like this.
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't buy the "many jewish friends". I don't care if you are white or a nationalist or a supremacist.

    OTOH, I do recognize a bigoted holocaust denier.

    The holocaust was not "so called", it is an historical fact. The Nazi regime instituted a program for the systematic elimination of the jews, roms, gays, and mentally handicapped. The jews were particularly singled out since a major objective was seizing their property, they were enslaved, murdered outright (gassed, shot, beaten), starved, experimented on, etc. these are facts that are only in dispute in the minds of bigoted denialists and rabid jew haters.

    If you care to actually look around you will find that in many societies jews are "over" represented in many industries and professions. Pointing to the fact that there were a few hundred Bolsheviks who were originally jews does not make bolshevism a jewish plot. And FYI, Stalin murdered virtually all the those jews within the party - a history book would be helpful for you.

    As an atheist myself, I agree that any people who actually believe in books written thousands of years ago by profoundly ignorant individuals have serious issues. Imagine catholics thinking only they can be admitted to heaven for instance - that seems pretty damn chosen to me as well.

    As for your summation including most of the stereotypical excrement about jews, it seems your declaration of friendship belies your bigotry.
     
  22. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    From what I know, the holocaust was not even a big thing mentioned right after WW2. Most of the huge publicity the Holocaust got came years...decades after...I believe sometime around Schindler's List, or maybe a little further back than that. Some researchers noted this- that not even the generals, like Eisenhower, made reference to the Holocaust in the journals/diaries or writing on the subject.

    I don't really believe that Israeli Zionists are at the top or the leaders of a conspiracy to take over the world. At the least, I would say that they are subservient to the US and the US is subservient to NATO, effectively. They are just fulfilling a role. There are plenty of other brutal states in the world just like them, they are just right there in the open masquerading as victims...as they all do.

    I believe, if you want to get an idea of the struggle for effective dominion over the world, you should study Gladio- both the past and what it has evolved to in the present. Most of this al Qaeda and ISIS bullcrap will be much clearer to you when you read about it- especially Turkey's involvement.
     
  23. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If that is what you know, you obviously don't know much about the holocaust.

    http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/holocaust.html
     
  24. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about the him writing about the Holocaust in his official capacity of President of the US, I meant in his own personal memoirs, and not during the war, but after it- meaning the significance of it's legacy to AMerican's/Europeans directly after the overlapping bloodbaths that constituted WW2.
     
  25. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    NUREMBURG TRIALS RING A BELL?

    I note with no surprise that you employ the "Eisenhower/Churchill memoirs don't mention the holocaust", but they actually do, they just don't reference the gas chambers. Seems this is yet another denialist obfuscation.

    It was ALWAYS part of the legacy of ww2, although efforts by the victims seeking justice, property return and/or recompense did raise its profile.
    This belies the fact that the VAST majority of jews simply believed in the phrase "NEVER AGAIN" and weren't going to let the world conveniently forget all about what the Nazis did.
     

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