Should Israel be dismantled?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Ronstar, Jan 1, 2015.

?

Dismantle Israel?

  1. Yes, turn them into a secular state.

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. Let them destroy themselves.

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. Let them Arab states free Palestine.

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its become clear that Israel will never abandon the West Bank and will never give citizenship to its non-Jewish inhabitants.

    should we therefore dismantle Israel and turn into a secular democracy, rather than see it become an Apartheid state?
     
  2. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    No. If the UN went in and dismantled the state, we know there will be an attempt to preserve Israel. That's going to cause more bloodshed in the end. Better for international sanctions or Israel changing its policies.
     
  3. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Israel will change the second Congress stops kissing her ass.
     
  4. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    And Congress will stop when there isn't a need to support Israel anymore, meaning the Jewish vote becomes less influential.
     
  5. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the Jewish vote is meaningless.

    its campaign donations that matter.
     
  6. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    Israel is a secular state. Palestinians can have a state once they purge themselves of terrorists. It really is simple.

    You call for Israel to respect Arab farmers' rights. Do you do the same for Hamas? You know Hamas has destroyed homes, businesses and killed Palestinians in large numbers. Funny you don't seem to care about that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Funny you don't know what you are talking about........yet you seem to want to sound important.
     
  7. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    The Jewish vote is tied to its donations as well.
     
  8. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and yet they demand Palestinians recognize them as a "Jewish" state.

    you all need to make up your minds.
     
  9. Rickity Plumber

    Rickity Plumber Banned

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    According to you, yes. According to the rest of the world, no.
     
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    how many thousands of dunams of Palestinian land has Hamas stolen?
     
  11. Karma Mechanic

    Karma Mechanic Well-Known Member

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    Stupid question.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...h-gaza-water-park-shut-down-by-hamas-1.314603

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/n.../looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/#.VKXN-yvF8gs


    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4706/gazan-hamas-war-crimes

    I await your publicly denounce this..........

    - - - Updated - - -

    You really don't know what that means? And yet you make pronouncements about Israel.

    Tell you what go there, meet with the Israeli left and ask them. Then go to Gaza and talk to them. The Israeli arabs in the Galil, East Jerusalem. See what they say.
     
  12. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    I second this emotion... but back at the farm... this is the latest on Alyah...


    Subject: : Aliyah Hits Ten-Year High: 26, 500 New Immigrants Arrived in Israel in 2014


    This year also saw a historic shift: for the first time in Israel's history,
    the number of immigrants who came to Israel from the free world is greater
    than that of immigrants fleeing countries in distress.
    Aliyah Hits Ten-Year High:
    Approximately 26,500 New Immigrants Arrived in Israel in 2014
    The Jewish Agency for Israel - Ministry of Aliyah and Immigrant Absorption

    § Worldwide Aliyah up 32% compared to 2013

    § For the first time ever, more immigrants came from France than from any
    other country

    § Aliyah from Ukraine up 190% – nearly threefold – compared to last year

    Sharansky: "This is a year of record-breaking Aliyah. I very much hope the
    next government continues to invest in Aliyah."

    Landver: "We expect that some 10,000 new immigrants will come from France
    alone next year, and we will surpass 30,000 immigrants – and even more."

    JERUSALEM, ISRAEL – According to end-of-year figures released today
    (Wednesday, December 31) by The Jewish Agency for Israel and the Ministry of
    Aliyah and Immigrant Absorption, Aliyah (immigration to Israel) hit a
    ten-year high in 2014, with the arrival of some 26,500 new immigrants. This
    marks a significant 32% increase over last year's number of approximately
    20,000 immigrants.

    For the first time ever, France tops the list of countries of origin for
    immigrants to Israel, with nearly 7,000 new immigrants in 2014, double the
    3,400 who came last year. This development has spurred The Jewish Agency and
    the Ministry of Aliyah and Immigrant Absorption to encourage Aliyah from
    France and facilitate French immigrants' absorption into Israeli society, as
    well as to expose young French Jews to life in Israel via Israel experience
    programs run by The Jewish Agency.

    Additionally, some 5,840 new immigrants have come from Ukraine over the
    course of the year, compared to some 2,020 in 2013. This dramatic 190%
    increase is due primarily to the ongoing instability in the eastern part of
    the country. The Jewish Agency and the Ministry of Aliyah and Immigrant
    Absorption are meeting thechallenge posed by the situation on the ground by
    expanding operations in Ukraine and offering immigrants special financial
    assistance.

    Chairman of the Executive of The Jewish Agency Natan Sharansky said: "2014
    was a year of record-breaking Aliyah. This year also saw a historic shift:
    for the first time in Israel's history, the number of immigrants who came to
    Israel from the free world is greater than that of immigrants fleeing
    countries in distress. This trend is evidence of Israel's attractiveness as
    a place where it's good to live, as well as of the success of our joint
    efforts to promote Aliyah and strengthen connections between Jews around the
    world and the State of Israel. As we forecast further increases in Aliyah
    from around the world, I very much hope the next government continues to
    join The Jewish Agency in maintaining Aliyah encouragement and immigrant
    absorption as top priorities."

    Minister of Aliyah and Immigrant Absorption Sofa Landver said: "This year we
    mark a ten-year record of Aliyah and a 32% increase over last year in the
    number of Jews who reached the conclusion that they have no other country. I
    am excited to see the fruits of our many efforts to encourage Aliyah, but we
    have not yet reached our goal. Our ministry continues to work together with
    all relevant parties to promote the ingathering of the exiles, a vision that
    has accompanied the people of Israel since the state's establishment. We
    expect that some 10,000 new immigrants will come from France alone next
    year, and we will surpass 30,000 immigrants from around the world – and even
    more."

    Expanded data:

    Aliyah from Western Europe is up 88%,with the arrival of some 8,640
    immigrants this year compared to some 4,600 last year. The most significant
    increase was in Aliyah from France, which doubled from some 3,400 immigrants
    in 2013 to nearly 7,000 this year. Additionally, some 620 immigrants came to
    Israel from the United Kingdom, compared to 520 last year – a 20% increase.
    The number of immigrants from Italy doubled to approximately 340. Aliyah
    from Belgium saw a modest decrease, to some 240 immigrants this year. The
    number of immigrants from Germany remained stable, at approximately 120.

    Aliyah from the former Soviet Union is up 50%, with the arrival of some
    11,430 immigrants compared to approximately 7,610 last year. The most
    notable increase was in Aliyah from Ukraine, which rose by 190% to some
    5,840 immigrants this year. 4,830 immigrants came from Russia, Belarus, and
    the Baltic states, compared to 4,640 last year. Some 300 immigrants came
    from the Caucasus and some 390 from Central Asia.

    Aliyah from Latin America remained stable, with the arrival of some 1,070
    immigrants, similar to last year's numbers. Aliyah from Brazil saw a 45%
    increase, with 300 immigrants compared to 210 in 2013. Approximately 297
    immigrants came from Argentina, 76 from Mexico, 70 from Venezuela, 62 from
    Colombia, 58 from Uruguay, and 52 from Chile.

    Aliyah from North America increased modestly, with the arrival of some 3,870
    immigrants compared to some 3,600 last year. Approximately 3,470 immigrants
    came from the United States, compared to some 3,200 in 2013 – an 8%
    increase. Some 400 immigrants came from Canada, compared to some 384 last
    year.

    Some 232 immigrants came to Israel from Eastern Europe, compared to
    approximately 270 last year. Approximately 126 immigrants came from Hungary,
    32 from Poland, 24 from Romania, and 24 from Bulgaria.

    Some 190 immigrants came to Israel from South Africa, roughly the same as
    last year's numbers. Some 200 immigrants came from Australia and New
    Zealand, compared to some 260 in 2013.

    More than half of the immigrants who came to Israel in 2014 were under the
    age of 35, including some 5,300 children and some 8,200 young adults between
    the ages of 18 and 34. The eldest immigrant this year was born in 1910 and
    made Aliyah from France at the age of 104. The youngest came from the United
    States and was only several weeks old.

    Some 2,500 of the immigrants work in engineering and technological fields,
    and thousands hold degrees in the humanities, social sciences, life
    sciences, and exact sciences. More than 1,000 doctors and health
    professionals made Aliyah, as did some 600 artists and athletes. In
    November, the Government of Israel approved a series of recommendations
    aimed at breaking down barriers to employment for immigrants and ease their
    integration into the workforce.

    Tel Aviv led the chart of cities receiving new immigrants, with
    approximately 3,000 new Tel Avivians. The coastal city of Netanya came
    second and Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, came in third.

    * This data is tentative and is based on preliminary estimates by The Jewish
    Agency and the Ministry of Aliyah and Immigrant Absorption *
    ________________________________________
    IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
     
  13. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    To your untimely POLL 2x people 200%...

    Well I went a little farther and dug in the annals of history because I knew there was something inadequate... This will take the wind out of your sails.

    1939 Palestinian Flag. What does it look like? Surprised?

    http://www.factualisrael.com/1939-palestinian-flag-look-like-surprised/
     
  14. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes, perhaps Israel should be dismantled.

    it appears to be unable to practise real democracy
     
  15. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Once again I did not vote, the choices once again do not include the simple answer of "No, it is none of our business". The only way the issue will ever be dealt with is among those that live there, no outside force can resolve anything in the region.
     
  16. MrSunday

    MrSunday Banned

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    Let Israel destroy itself. Honestly it is cancer.
     
  17. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    As Orthodox Jews and others who have actually read the Bible know, zionism is a racist and anti-biblical ideology.



    [​IMG]



    Dismantle the anti-biblical state and we shall have peace in that region.


    [​IMG]
     
  18. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    Zionist Jews from its beginning NEVER intended to share Palestine with non-\Jews.

    Ben Gurion Foresaw Palestinian Expulsion in 1937


    extract :

    "When Jewish settlement first began in the eighties of last century, it connoted no political ambition, and the Rothschild colonies lived in peace and amity with their Arab neighbours, and were, in fact, of great assistance to them, providing them with regular employment, and assisting them to develop the Arab lands in proximity to the new Jewish Settlements. The same practice prevailed in the case of the German Colonies. Even to-day, though things are changing rapidly, and under Zionist pressure the P.I.C.A. colonies are being compelled gradually to part with their Arab workmen, the friendly spirit animating the Arab towards the old settlers in the P.I.C.A. colonies is in marked contrast to their keen hostility to the settlers introduced by the Zionist organization.

    Had the method of the P.I.C.A. continued, no political question would have arisen, and the Jews could have effected a peaceful penetration of Palestine without any opposition on the part of the Arab population. . . .

    So the large estate passes to the Jewish National Fund, and becomes ” the inalienable property of the Jewish people.” It will be used for the settlement of Jews on conditions which render it impossible that any but a Jew can ever hold the land in future, or can ever be employed on it as a labourer. This is, from every point of view, a most serious happening. It is undesirable from the economic point of view, for unemployment among the Arabs is already a serious problem.

    The political aspect of the matter is even more serious, for it confirms the Arab in the belief commonly held that Jewish policy is designed deliberately to oust the Arab from the land of Palestine. And it is impossible to affirm that this belief is unfounded.

    The policy of the Zionists indicates that their ultimate intention, by means of steady and consistent land purchase and settlement with the provisions noted, is to buy the country, and to buy it under conditions which will render it impossible for any Arab to earn his daily bread in the territory which they have acquired.

    It is a policy of the inevitability of gradualness of the most sinister kind. . . . For instance, at the moment a communal colony for workers is being constructed just outside the P.I.C.A. village of Ness Ziona.

    This is being done as a method of enforcing the policy of the General Federation of Jewish Labour, to exclude the Arab workmen from Jewish villages, and the workers’ colony is, in fact, a threat and a menace. This was a case which should have been known to the Government, and in which the Government should have called on the Jewish Agency to explain what it was doing. It is probable that in time there will be trouble about labour in Ness Ziona. The price of oranges is falling, and shortly it will not be possible to employ Jewish labour at the rates fixed by the General Federation and at the same time to export oranges. Yet the labourers who are being planted on the borders of Ness Ziona will demand employment, and will take steps to see that Arabs are not employed for the picking and packing of the fruit.

    by Richard Silverstein on December 28, 2013


    more here :


    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/12/28/ben-gurion-foresaw-palestinian-expulsion-in-1937/
     
  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    most Orthodox Jews are Zionist.
     
  20. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Israel has found a vaccine against certain Cancers... I hope your country will not ever need it.
     
  21. Phoebe Bump

    Phoebe Bump New Member

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    There is no need to support it now. All that support is just weakening this country.
     
  22. MrSunday

    MrSunday Banned

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    Britain was the country that granted the Balfour Declaration. You should be thankful.

    Ever since the state of Israel has been created there has so many conflicts. Israel wants to control the entire region. Israel will simply self-destruct if it continues to behave like a tyrant.
     
  23. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    And all any British govt ever got from pompous Zionists for that dishonourable declaration has been shlte for thanks .


    ....
     
  24. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    choosing a religious name for their country was probably not the best bet for peace... but it's their choice


    .
     
  25. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    However they chose not to tell where the name originally came from

    IS - RA - EL


    What does the name Israel mean?

    Is (Isis), Ra (Amun) and El (Saturn).



    Is it just a co-incidence that the name 'Israel' incorporates three gods/goddesses, or is it the reason for the name Israel?

    ISIS

    Isis [IS] was an Egyptian Throne Goddess dating back to the 5th dynasty. Her name literally means the feminine aspect of the throne - also the Queen of the throne. However, the hieroglyph for her name used originally meant (female) of flesh, i.e. mortal, and she may simply have represented deified Earthly queens of the World. She was most prominently remembered as the wife of Horus, or, in later periods, as the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, and was worshiped as the archetypal wife and mother

    RA


    Ra (sometimes spelled Rê) is the sun-god of Heliopolis in ancient Egypt. Ra originally meant "mouth" in the Egyptian language, and was a reference to his creation of the deities of the Ogdoad system, excluding the 8 concepts which created him, by the power of speech (compare how Yahweh was said to have created the world). In later Egyptian dynastic times, Ra was subsumed into the god Horus, as Re-Horakhty (and many variant spellings).
    ---

    EL

    aka


    Ellil


    by Micha F. Lindemans

    "The Akkadian god of earth and wind. He is the son of Ansar and Kisar, the primordial deities, and the father of the moon god Sin. Together with Ea and Anu he forms a powerful triad of gods in the ancient Mesopotamian religion. He is represented wearing a headband which is decorated with horns. He is equivalent to the Sumerian god Enlil."
    Enlil

    by Micha F. Lindemans

    "In ancient Sumero-Babylonian myth, Enlil ("lord wind") is the god of air, wind and storms. Enlil is the foremost god of the Mesopotamian pantheon, and is sometimes referred to as Kur-Gal ("great mountain"). In the Sumerian cosmology he was born of the union of An heaven and Ki earth. These he separated, and he carried off the earth as his portion. In later times he supplanted Anu as chief god. His consort is Ninlil with whom he has five children: Nanna, Nerigal, Ningirsu, Ninurta, and Nisaba.

    Enlil holds possession of the Tablets of Destiny which gives him power over the entire cosmos and the affairs of man. He is sometimes friendly towards mankind, but can also be a stern and even cruel god who punishes man and sends forth disasters, such as the great Flood which wiped out humanity with the exception of Atrahasis. Enlil is portrayed wearing a crown with horns, symbol of his power. His most prestigious temple was in the city Nippur, and he was the patron of that city. His equivalent is the Akkadian god Ellil."



    What I also suggest is that EL and YHWH were two separate 'gods' - see: YHWH as Marduk. So we see that the gods El and Yahweh are distinct gods from each other, as distinct as their individual names. Yahweh was worshipped as a war god from the deserts of southern Palestine who migrated north to Judah while El was the god of Israel whose home was Mesopotamia. Historically speaking, the two gods must be regarded as originally distinct that subsequently were related and finally identified through political and religious syncreticism. ( by Betty Rhodes )

    ===

    Throughout ancient history the names of Gods/Gods have often changed reinterpreted /reinvented incorporated into the next following belief systems.

    It is /can be whatever believers believe it to be or to have been.

    Glory be to our good Lord Dionysus :beer:(hic)

    ,,,
     

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