The Myth of Race: The Troubling Persistence of an Unscientific Idea

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by Egalitarianjay02, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    [video=youtube;V1fa3c81isw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1fa3c81isw[/video]


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    I recently bought this book and would like to have a discussion about the content. The Myth of Race: The Troubling Persistence of an Unscientific Idea is a book that came out in 2014 which chronicles the history of the concept of race and racism throughout the ages up until modern times. The book provides scientific evidence that there are no biological races in the human species and that modern Scientific Racism is motivated by a racist ideological agenda which uses pseudoscientific arguments to claim a genetic basis to racist stereotypes as well as promote racist social policies.

    I have invited the author of the book, Robert Sussman, to this thread to answer questions related to his book and debate anyone who wants to challenge his position.

    So with that being said let the discussion begin!
     
  2. Bob Sussman

    Bob Sussman Closed Account

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    "The Myth of Race" is a new book that gives us a history of race and racism. It traces the history of racist ideas from the Spanish Inquisition, through the middle ages, into colonial times, slavery, Darwin's times, then onto American Eugenics history, Nazism, the civil rights movement, and modern times. It also shows how Franz Boas and his students led us to a new understanding of human diversity. Many people still believe that race is a biological reality and still live in the 17th and 18th Centuries. They still read such books as the Bell Shaped Curve and Nicolas Wade's new book "A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History" and believe this garbage. These books are old and old fashion. They are wrong. It is time that they learn new facts about racism and race history. "The Myth of Race: The persistence of an Unscientific Idea" is the antidote to these misconceptions. I would be happy to answer any questions that you have.
     
  3. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    Thank you for joining the forum Dr. Sussman. I'd like to start off the thread by talking about two topics that we've had recently in the race relations forum.

    1. Darwinian evolution and the origins of Scientific Racism

    2. Racial hierarchies in brain size

    In another thread a poster named NaturalBorn posted an article stating that Darwin's theory of evolution was inherently racist and that there is a direct relationship between Darwinian Evolution, eugenics and the atrocities of Nazi Germany. My question to you is do you believe that Darwin himself was a racist and do you believe he bears any responsibility for the Holocaust or any other actions of racialists in the 20th and 21st Century?

    Now for the second topic the posters named Rayznack and Mikemikev have consistently maintained that there are racial differences in intelligence and that differences in brain volume have a causal effect on intelligence. My next question for you is, what do you feel are the flaws in the argument that there are racial hierarchies in brain size which determine differences in intelligence?
     
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    First, I want to thank the OP for actually getting the author of a book being discussed to join in. That's above and beyond the call.

    Secondly, I want to think Dr. Sussman for actually joining the forum to address issues on this subject.

    As for my question, the issue of race has previously been the domain of anthropologists, but with the advances in genetics, isn't this a topic that really can only be discussed in terms of genetics now?
     
  5. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Sorry, there is race. It might not always have clear lines of differentiation, but that does not mean it does not exist.

    Humans have been breeding all sorts of different plants and animals, and there are all sorts of examples here where the lines between species, sub-species, and just different breeds can become blurred. Some breeds are just closer related than others, orderly categorization can be difficult, but not impossible. Sometimes breeding together different breeds can lead to certain problematic issues when the breeds are too distantly related, but I do not have time to go into the details of that here.

    It just so happens that all the current races of humans are in the same species group–meaning it is possible for them to all interbreed. That does not preclude the possibility that some of them could be in a different sub-species group.


    [video=youtube;lHB6PrpHAGI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHB6PrpHAGI[/video]


    In early March, 2003, investigators turned to Tony Frudakis, a molecular biologist who said he could determine the killer's race by analyzing his DNA. They were unsure about the science, so, before giving him the go-ahead, the task force sent Frudakis DNA swabs taken from 20 people whose race they knew and asked him to determine their races through blind testing. He nailed every single one.
    http://archive.wired.com/politics/law/magazine/16-01/ps_dna


    The different races have developed over hundreds of thousands of years. I think it would be a great loss to the world if they were to disappear, or became all muddled together. Human diversity is really a form of biodiversity.
     
  6. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    Perhaps any who think so could explain why they think the human race concept is invalid?
     
  7. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

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    Curious question, Bob, but what about Confucian culture, do you suppose, results in Northeast Asians attaining high visual-spatial and mathematical ability but lower verbal reasoning?

    And what about European Jewish culture results in European Jews (as opposed to non-European Jews, Europeans and non-Europeans) having high verbal reasoning, mathematical ability but lower visual-spatial ability?
     
  8. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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  9. Bob Sussman

    Bob Sussman Closed Account

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    1. Darwin, like many of his colleagues, was a racist and his ideas lead to many of the more recent ideas of Eugenics and Nazism. However, I would not say that Darwin would believe Eugenics or Nazism. Many of the intellects had different views of what racism meant in the 1850's and Darwin had a "more open" view that would be called "degenerate or monomorphic" rather than "pre-Adamite or polymorhic." Read the book and you should understand this. Concerning brain size and intelligence, the myth of differences in brain size and intelligence are all totally false. There are many, many, many books and articles on these topics starting with the works of early anthropologists and psychologists. Concerning how we interpret IQ just take a look at the books by Jefferson Fish on this topic. It is simply "out of date" to believe that there are differences in so called races and anything that we might call intelligence or brain structure.
    2. Yes, besides anthropologists, it is extremely important to look at the work of geneticists in talking about race. If you look at my book, you will see that the first chapter talks about the works of many geneticists in describing why the concept of race is real in many mammals but is not real in humans. Besides Alan Templeton, you will see many, many, many books that you can read, by geneticists and anthropological geneticists, that explain why there are no races among humans.
    3. The ideas expressed in this comment are exactly what we would expect from modern racists. They have no basis in any scientific thought about biological or human variation. Jared Taylor and his American Renaissance group are direct descendents of the Pioneer Fund and have been trying to sell bad science for years. Again, please read my book and see what these people believe and how they stay in the past. You cannot just say that people are different because of any specific trait, you must look at the total gene pool and how different gene pools relate to one another. In chimpanzees there are enough differences between populations that races do exist, in humans there is not. If there are no simple ways to divided humans, you cannot say that they are genetically different. And, in fact, they are not.
    3. Read my book and many of the references that I refer to and you will see that races in humans do not exist.
    4. Confucian culture and European Jews do have very different ways of looking at the world. As I say in my book, culture is real but it is not biological. We learn to look at the world and have a world view that is developed by our ethnicity or "racial" culture. Our way of seeing things is dependent upon our cultural background and this is true of Confucian culture and being Jewish. Not all Asian and not all Jews would fit into these categories. It depends upon how they were brought up.
    These are my answers to the above questions except for the one that has asked me to read a couple of articles. I will look them over and have an answer for those later. However, if you are asking me questions, it might be good for you to read the book first. Many of the answers should be covered there.
     
  10. Bob Sussman

    Bob Sussman Closed Account

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    The Culture of Critique is simply a biased, prejudice book. Simply read the reviews and one can easily see this. Unfortunately, many people still believe in these views. Although most of us do not believe the earth is flat and that it began 4000 years ago, many still believe in old racist ideas. Modern humans evolved about 200,000 years ago and have been migrating ever since. However, these migrations were never in one direction and we have been interbreeding even since. Humans are the same genetically more than they are different -- that is just what geneticists are trying to tell you. There are different "races" however, these are behavioral and not biological. You were born and raised under different circumstances and it is those circumstances that make you think and behave the way that you do. If we were all born and bread to love one another, the world would be a much better place.
     
  11. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    So we should completely dismiss the reality of racial differences because it led to Eugenics and Nazism?

    Some ethnicities are taller than other ethnicities. The Hottentot women of Africa have huge hips and buttocks.
    Why is it so unbelievable that brain sizes might be a little different?

    Small genetic differences can have very significant effects. A mouse has 97.5% of the same DNA that humans do, while a chimpanzee has 98.8% of the same genes.

    I can tell someone's race just be looking at them. Shouldn't that be enough to tell you there are differences?

    I partially disagree. I think an ethnic culture is affected by the statistical genetic traits of the individuals in that group. So, for example, if you have enough rowdy individuals who like loud music, that will carry into the culture and cause an inclination towards rowdiness and loud music among individuals in the same culture group who may not be predisposed to those tendencies. Genetics affects culture.

    You might see this thread:
    it's not culture, it's not malnourishment, it's not income level
     
  12. Jabrosky

    Jabrosky Member

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    I'd be interested in picking up the book and reading it myself (I am on your side of this issue by the way), but unfortunately most of these guys in the opposition don't sound like the type who would even bother. Some of them even go so far as to think that any argument is automatically invalidated if its author has a certain "style" of surname.

    I don't mean to pressure you into further elaboration. I understand that rebutting these guys over and over again, especially as they constantly rehash the same arguments, can exhaust or even numb the mind. I'm just warning you what you're up against in this thread.
     
  13. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    I invited Dr. Sussman to answer questions about the content of his book and debate anyone who opposes his views so I think he knows what he's getting in to.
     
  14. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    Unfortunately I do not have a copy of Bob's book so it would be good if he could explain why race is a myth.
     
  15. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    Sexes are also more the same than different. Is sex a myth too?
     
  16. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    This is a big contentious issue in Sweden and Norway. There are many progressive academics who insist there are absolutely no inherent gender differences (other than the obvious physical ones), and that it is all a cultural construct.

    Video that interviews Norwegian men and women, to investigate why the different genders prefer to do different types of jobs:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70&feature=related

    Notice how the progressives deny any possible genetic/biological differences and try to ascribe all gender differences to social conditioning.
    I think they feel that recognizing there do indeed exist inherent differences is threatening to their goal of equality.
     
    mikemikev and (deleted member) like this.
  17. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    And assuming equality is the real myth, the only way to achieve this would be to handicap any advantages.
     
  18. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    lol!!!

    really? I mean really? :)
     
  19. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Before I burst into a fit of uncontrollable laughter, can you explain what you possibly mean by this?
     
  20. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    Meaning the biological similarities between sexes outweigh the differences. You know how we both have two eyes etc. The taxonomy is about the differences. It's the same with race.
     
  21. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    LOL Um.. eyes arent part of our sex mate.

    ROFL You're way off, but keep trying. You've mistakenly confused sex with the much more inclusive characteristics of our status as being part of the same species, which does not define our sex, merely encompasses it.

    For example, if a census form says "what is your sex?" you dont write "I have two eyes etc". You say (usually) male or female. This refers to the sex of the person. This is a diffrent question that would otherwise relate to some other particular characteristic of our person, like "how many eyes do you have?" or "what colour are your eyes?", which are incidentally two questions equally distinguishable in the same way the status of our species is distinguishable from our sex.
     
  22. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    "ROTFLMAO you don't understand this which is exactly the same as what you wrote"
     
  23. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not surprised you conceded defeat so quickly.
     
  24. mikemikev

    mikemikev Banned

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    Nice style. Misrepresent me as stating something when I quite clearly stated the exact opposite, then declare yourself "the winner" when I point this out. Stunning.
     
  25. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you made a really impressive argument in your last comment :rolleyes: You keep at it. I think youve giving anyone reading this thread a great insight as to why the ignorance diffused by this book remains.
     

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