Can someone explain why Ukraine and Russia are not the same country?

Can someone explain why Ukraine and Russia are not the same country?

I mean this as a serious question. Growing up, I had a number of Ukrainian, Russian, and Belorussian friends who explained that their languages differed not much more than dialects of English differed. And from what I know of their ethnic history, the Slavic states east of Poland and Hungary are all effectively the same ethnicity with a common heritage, a common culture, religion, etc. For hundreds of years, they were all part of the Russian Empire and then the USSR.

The formal political division between Ukraine and Russia is quite new, and one can say “without historical precedent” as the two countries had never been formally separated into two sovereign states since the Romanovs took Ukraine from the Tartars and Golden Horde.

Most countries distinguish themselves (on a long term basis, not like North/South Korea) from others based on ethnic/historical lines. But there doesn’t seem to be a case for that between Russia and Ukraine, or Belorussia for that matter…

 

No hurry! In couple of years a new political map will look like this:

 

Ukraine is really two countries. The East speaks Russian, practices Eastern Orthodox faith and looks toward Russia. The West speaks Ukrainian, practices Catholic faith and looks toward Europe. They should conduct a referendum on splitting the country peacefully into two. It worked for Czechoslovakia. The other alternative - to go the way of Yugoslavia - is much worse.

 

Russians tend to be more socially conservative than Ukrainians. There is also a much higher rate of poverty in Ukraine than there is in Russia, which tends to foster more far-right and far-left oriented parties. Another factor is that, while both Russia and the Ukraine have a fair amount of diversity, ethnic relations in the two countries tend to be different. In the Russian Federation, Russians are by far the dominant group and all the others basically just assimilate in culturally, or live far off in remote villages in Siberia. In the Ukraine, on the other hand, there is more ethnic tension. Lastly, many in Ukraine look to NATO and the E.U. to help gain independence from Russia's meddling and influence. The Russian government is viewed with suspicion and seen as somewhat of a totalitarian force. Of course, Ukrainian politics are just as corrupt as in Russia.

Although Russians and Ukrainians are very similar, during Soviet rule under Stalin Russia attempted to make Ukraine more russian, permanently settling Russian migrants in Ukraine, and targeting the Ukrainian people with planned starvation, in which millions were killed. Ukrainians were seen as a threat to Communism because they had a strong land-owning middle class, attachment to religious beliefs, rejected of state atheism, and had a different ethnic identity, which was not seen as conducive to unification. Obviously this history has led to some lasting resentment against Russia.

The Soviet government also used similar tactics in other surrounding nations to weaken local populations and strengthen central control. Indigenous populations were replaced in whole or part with loyal ethnic Russians, who helped cement outlying areas to the Soviet core. This was done in the Baltic, Ukraine, Caucasia, Central Asia, Siberia, and inside Russia itself. These displacements and replacements were carried out through both forced migrations, confiscation of property, and not uncommonly even outright killings, but the result was always the same - the small country or region victimized was left more "diverse", but also more divided between its indigenous inhabitants, who often favored independence or more autonomy, and Russians and Russian-speakers loyal to Moscow. We see the legacy of this historical pattern playing out in the Ukraine conflict today.

 

Why would anyone want their country to live under the rule of Russia/Putin?

 

To live under rule of Ukraine - the worse variant!
Why Russians have to live in country Ukraine? South-West never been ukrainian(until joining to Ukraine republic by communists)

 

In modern history, Russia engaged in genocide and mass deportation and murder of the people of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, replacing them with Russians. Eastern Ukraine is necessary for Russia to again become a conquering world super power, which you apparently want to happen. Without Eastern Ukraine, Russia is just another major world power, one of many.

I gather you also think that the United States should also be divided up by ethnic and racial lines too. What about cities and neighborhoods? Do you also support ethnic and racial segregation at the micro level or only the national level?

Obviously you support returning California, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Texas to Mexico, correct?

Or is it that you favor returning all of the USA to Native Americans who occupied all of it for thousands of years?

A Putin groupie?

 

It is the same country, unfortunately traitors sold the people out. Now it is a failed state with sectarian violence.

 

Because at the end of Gorbachev's time separatism was very popular.
Every head of every republic thought that if they will be independent then republic will be much more wealthy.

 

Probably this is the same kind of issue as "Why North and South Korea are not the same country?" Or "Why East and West Germany were not the same country?" Why China and Taiwan are not the same country?

 

For those ones who would like to have more accurate and fair story on the issue I would recommend this article:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russian-federation/2014-04-14/how-save-ukraine
How to Save Ukraine By Keith Darden

It focuses more on so-called New Russia but explains perfectly the historic background of the modern state Ukraine. Without propaganda and fairy-tales about "planned starvations", evil Russians and so on.

 

It's sad there is no active American diplomats which keep sensible mind and have good education like Kissinger.

 

I suppose it's like Austria and Germany or Britain and Australia. Identical really. Eastern territory. Österreich.

I know with Austria, most of the people there are ethnically slavic. Just like in Australia we have a lot of Irish blood and in America you have a lot of German blood. Geography can create differences too. I see a lot of difference between Aussie and English, but I can understand why and outsider can't see that.

Russia conquered the caucasus and colonised it. Just as Deutschlanders did with their eastern territory.

 

answer is very simple . ulus Muscovia (RF ) is more close to your Hanlands , it always has had Asiatic form of Governance, Asiatic laws, and norms . thats why they much like you Hans love Muscovites tyrant-rulers those who sodomize (literally) , rape, torture , kill them 10th millions. at other hand Ukraine (Rus´) is a typical European country. i am not talking about Bielarus´ which was the leading country in Europe through entire its independent history (book printing , university-high education , law, religious tolerance, etc.)
my source the best historian on this subject today timothy snyder (a professor at Yale University,)


did i answer on all your questions?

 

Not to forget: today is not only the 14 th anniversary of the terrorist attacks in USA but also the 332 nd anniversary of the day, a Polish-Lithuanian-Belorusian-Ukrainian Army (together with some allies, Bavaria with them throw out the Osmans of Vienna and rescued middle Europe and gave the starting Shot to free Hungaria and the Balkonys.
Thanks to Jan Sobiesky, the Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth and it's peoples fot that.
Middle Europe should be at least be a Little thankful for that and pay a Little help back instead of threaten them like they ( esp. Germany) did too often in the Last three centuries.

 

It's a long story.

1. In general. The ethnic relations, common language, religion, economy etc is not necessarily the prerequisites of making a one state. There are times when different nations of Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, British Empire, Han' Kingdom etc make one state. There are times when Germany is split into eastern and western, Yugoslavia into a number of states and USSR into a number of republiques. Being in Hong Kong you are quite close to this phenomenon.

It's political reasons. They are either connected with external influence of conquerors or internal growing radical differences between radical political parties. Or both.

2. The main reason for the separation of former soviet republiqus was a loss of USSR in a cold war, which led to a controlled degraging of all spheres of human activity. In a political sphere it is represnted with a political separation of brother nations. In economic sphere - it is loss of technological cooperation between different republiques (if in USSR cotton was made in Turkmenia, fabric in Russia, clothes in Poland and the Baltic countries got their ports busy with transportation, then now Turkmenia grows no cotton but drugs, instead of fabric factory there is a trade center in Russia, Poland transports turkish clothes to the market and Baltic countries enjoy a nice view over the sea), cultural division and degrading, educational degrading.

The losers have to learn on their mistakes and slowly rebuild what they lost.

China was in the same conditions after the Opium wars. It was separated, its culture, traditions and perspectives were vague and all the spheres of life were being extinct and degrading.

3. Historical.
There are important differences between our brother but different nations. Before the tatar invasion (which also affected China) there were no ukrainians, byelorussians or even russians. The nation wasn't made. It was a number of feudal polices, which fighted each other and united to fight the common enemy. The centralization was weak and there was no state and nations the way we understand them now. Tatars stroke just the time when the nation-building was going. Tatars managed to destroy the armies of our feuds in a number of consecutive battles. They were the first which made an artificial border between the one people leaving western Russia aside from the conquered land of central and northern Russia. The conquered regions stayed in a political slavery from tatar khanate although they were not interested for that much more rather than the money. 300 years a number of russian provinces spent as a part of their Golden Horde. In the meantime there was a different slavic and russian state in the west which was called Litva. It also a feudal state and it was dependant on baltic tribes and polish king. The poles were of different religion. They were catholic and not orthodox, so there was a cultural influence trying to break the national traditions which mostly failed. It is true however that in a period between the 13 and 15th century we have different history and the history of central and northern Russia belongs rather to Asian policy than to western. Since 15 century the Golden Horde starts to collapse and the new story of unity starts.
It took quite a long time for the russians to make a kingdom of their own, but it started to rapidly regain power. in a clash with the swedes turks and poles. This period of history is almost the same excluding some regional differences. And it continues until the new time of the WW1.

In WW1 Russian empire fought mostly with Austro-Hungary and the main interests of Russia were in Galicia where slavic orthodox people still lived. This war already had cultural weapons and the rivals of Russia started propaganda to settle hostility between russians of northern and central Russia with the russians of west and southern Russia. This propaganda mostly failed, but it left some cultural artufacts which are now used as if it was a national struggle of ukrainians against Russia. Unfortunately Russian state was too weak to outlive this war and our enemies were given time from 1917 to 1919 to make a puppet states of Ukraine there. The civil war was different. The people which now can be called ukrainians (although they would be surprised to hear that, cause they identigied themselves as malorus) mostly fought against the german occupants protecting their homeland. Russians in the meantime were fighting each other because of th political differences. As a result a communist Red Army came to a territory which haven't passed all the way of civil struggle and in some cases was regarded as occupants. Civil war made people to steal and kill their brothers for a piece of bread. And the echo of this real struggle with real vicitims is regarded as separation of ukrainians and russians. There were a group of people confronting bloshevik government which wanted to rule themselves and they started to serve special services of western countries. Mostly Germany.
But this is a third big difference already. When Hitler invaded USSR he was accompanied by a group of progessional ukrainians who killed everyone who didn't suit their fascist criteria. So they used terror and force to made quite a lot of people ukrainians. It was just a few years, but the memory left in the people how 'good' it was to rape and rob defenseless jews, poles and russians settled in the minds of western russians for a long time. And it was revived as propaganda of Bandera and Shukhevich in modern Ukraine. For the russians Bandera is a criminal and fascist slave, who never built anything for the people and was never even brave enough to confront regular soviet army on the battlefield. But for ukrainians he is a hero who brabely 'cleaned' Ukraine off largely hated russians, jews, poles and others non-ukrainians.

The fourth division in history is happening now at the moment. It started with Maidan which was a very mean and treacherous loss of any kind of independence giving the country to the west in exchange for poverty and opportunity to kill. Odessa Khatyn' is worshipped by those who call themselves ukrainians. They show the bodies of their friends shot by unidentified sniper and tell that burning people alive was a kind of self-defense. They shoot at Donetsk and Lugansk because they were told that somewhere there are russian soldiers and do everything the US needs of them. Even more if they think it could please their master.

 

So we have another person who wants to see the USSR restored.

Ukraine has been populated since 32,000 BC. It has been independent. It has been conquered and occupied by Lithuania, Poland, the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and Russia. It managed to obtain independence repeated, including from Russia prior to WWI - was then invaded and recaptured by Russia, again during WWII, and again in 1991 thru the present.

Asking why Russia and Ukraine are not the same country is no different than asking why the UK and India aren't the same country or why the UK and USA aren't the same country?

The reason is because they aren't the same country and historically the population have never viewed themselves as the same people or same country. The greatest mistake of all that Hitler made in WWII was upon invasion of Russia he did not announce to Ukrainians "you are free." Entire Russia armies and Russian generals of them, Ukrainian, offered to fight with Germans against Russia - Russia being invaders and occupiers of their country. Hitler refused because they were of the wrong race and he wanted their land and factories for Germany.

Crimea was largely Tartar Muslim. Putin worshippers claim that Stalin's genocide against them legitimately gave Crimea to Russia. The industrial base of Eastern Ukraine is necessary for Russia to conquer again to met Putin's goal of restoring Russia a conquering imperial world super power of subjugated conquered colony-countries and conquered territories, rather than just another major power.

Those who want the USSR restored will cherry pick moments of history of Russian occupation and conquest to support that goal.

Putin worshippers praise Stalin for having engaged in mass deportations and genocide against Ukrainians - most notably Muslim and non-Russia speaking Caucasians. They were deported, relocated and slaughtered by the millions, with Russian moved in taking their homes, factories, jobs and land. These Putin worshippers claim this then gives rise to a completely legitimate claim.

Unfortunately, Ukraine is one of those countries high on the betrayal list, particularly by the British, French, USA and Russia. Ukraine relying upon assurances from the USA and Western powers for protection against Russia in exchange for giving up their huge nuclear weapons arsenal is why they are systematically again being turned into impoverished and subjugated serf-slaves of their master-race ethnic Russians with Russia their Lord. Ukrianians foolishly believed that the USA and Western countries would cease seeing them as ethnically and racially inferior people unworthy of becoming one of us.

What should the USA and West do about it? Dump sniper rifles, explosive packs, small anti-armor and anti-low altitude aircraft/helicopter weapons into Western Ukraine. Ukrainians would blow up Eastern Ukraine factories Putin wants rather than letting Russia have them. Russians really enjoy killing and relocating Ukrainians to death work camps. Ukrainians love to kill Russians even more. THAT is the history of the Ukraine people - being invaded and occupied - being killed by the occupiers and killing the occupiers. Ukrainians have very good reasons to hate Russia and Russians - generations worth of reasons. BUT for Russia, Ukraine would be a wealthy country. Because of Russia it is impoverished.

It is known why Putin wants Eastern Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine is vital to Russia's economy. The Donbass region houses much of the Ukraine's heavy industry, including metallurgical plants, coal mines, chemical processing operations, and salt mines that produce heavily for the domestic market, as well as agriculture. With it, Russia can return to being the world expanding and overwhelming super power matched only by the USA - and without it Russia can not. Without Eastern Ukraine, Ukrainians in the West starve, freeze and are impoverished to the point of essentially becoming Russia's serfs.

Being starving people, Russia can them use Ukrainians as their cannon fodder soldiers in colonization such as to fight and die to hold onto Syrian, retake the countries on Russia's Southern border, and reach into nearly every continent to various degrees. Ukraine has always been and is the key to Russia being an imperialistic super power - or not. This is why for the last few centuries that region has often been a major battle ground and basis for many wars. To prevent that, NO ONE should have Ukraine but Ukrainians.

Ukraine has been a battle playground by world powers for a few centuries now - anytime one or another world power controls it. Russia occupying Ukraine is a formula for war between the major powers. Any time Ukraine is occupied by another country that is what it lead to. So among all the reasons Ukrainians should be given the tools to resist Russian occupation is that greater war always comes between major powers if Ukraine is occupied.

 

Your pro-Russian expansionism isn't the good-truism you just assert it to be. But that is the core of your position. The mindset of Russians and Russia for nearly all of Russian history is of conquest of other countries and peoples. The rational behind "breaking Russia" is to prevent Russia from being able to do so again. Thus, you want to restore Russian imperialism for whatever reasons you do, and I oppose it.

You also support Russia's final solution of eliminating all Muslims from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine inherently in your position. Putin announced early on that he will remove the last of the Tartar Muslims from Crimea - claiming it is for their own safety. That is why there are "Muslim units fighting on behalf of Ukraine." They are trying to stop the next holocaust and final extermination holocaust against the last of Muslims in Ukraine.

 

It's a pure nonsense. I can't believe any sane person could eat such a crap. I advise you to check your sources. Give me a link where and when Putin said that, and then we will talk about your other historical imaginations.

 

oh poor Crown (polish) mind, our L-magnates did want go in this, to help an old foe against funny ottomans ?, only religions poles can make such mistake

 

Oh, I wouldn't see it as such a wrong decision, cause:

- as far as I know, the Habsburg and the PL-Commonwealth had quite good relationships through the centuries (don't mix Southern Germans with bellingrent Prussians, you would also disagree if I mix Belorusians with Russians ) - until the betrayal of 1772, indeed;

- the Ottomans were not "funny" but really the biggest danger to Europe of that time and would (if they had conquerred Austria and Bohemia) have been a danger for Poland too, so why not fight them in a coalition,

Maybe the (polish) government did not see it like the Lithuanians, that the essential danger for the country did not come from the south, but the east, but looking back in history it's always easy to judge.

 

Except China and Taiwan ARE the same country. It's the only point both governments agree on.

 

you made a lot of good points, still strategically Poland ´d much like France support Ottomans against Habsburgs. i know that south Germans has mentality of central europe. even i can say that AH was the best , most civilized empire in Europe.


Ottomans could not conquer Austria and Bohemia, its an orientalic myth. all territorial gains in Europe Ottomans did only against Eastern Roman territorials. West europe was simply way too advanced for them - Vienna , Malta etc. limits of grasslands, banking, economy , development in general . if you want to know more about this subject read some of fernand braudel books


Noone who has at home a Snider book, ever mix Belorusians (Litvins) with Russians (Muscovites) , even more you can not find another 2 antagonist nations, which fight for dominance in the entire eastern europe for 100th and 100th years . European model vs Golden Horde model form of governance . laws, etc.

the great Lithuanians had way more important issues at that time

 

My grandparents came to America in 1905 from

Kiev, Russia. Originally settled by ancient, "Rus" as in Russian!


Ukraine has been part of Russia longer than California or Texas have been part of

Dumber than Stupid was the idea that administrative regions
termed republics were fit to be nation - states.
And, California and Texas did know time as independent Republics in history, unlike Ukraine.


Moi
Ukraine is Russian
Bavaria is German


r > g

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