American Submarine Ban

The LNP has banned America from tendering for submarine contract as Tony Abbott has reached agreement with Japan, that in return for buying some Australian Coal the LNP will buy Japanese submarines.

This keeps the LNP in good with coal, and gives Japan better odds at wiping out our defences when it next chooses to give it a go!

 

Does America build subs that would be suitable for Australia?

 

According to our government, we cannot even build canoes.
So everything is better....
Why not an open tender?
It is the man's style, not to discuss, but to decide what he reckons is best.
The decision was long made....
Regards

 

Apparently, Bishop made a play to our Foreign Affairs Minister: Frank- Walter Steinmeier to negotiate buying German Subs. Completing the task would have given her diplomatic credibility in Europe - something she lost due to her flawed and biased views over the Russian Malaysian plane incident. Additionally, she would have been given some extra political numbers to make a formal leader challenge if the bargain was struck. Unfortunately for Julie, things went horribly sour for her. Germany didn't want Australia's dirty coal, and there was nothing Australia had that Germany wanted. Therefore, the negotiations were based on realism for a change - the best product for the best price.

An Australia Prime Minister has now turned to a country (Japan) that once attacked Australia during wartime to buy subs from.

Now Australian tax payers are going to be investing in inferior subs built by the Japanese, because the Japanese have reduced the costs of the subs due to the extra deal done on the Japanese exporting Australian dirty coal at lower rates per ton.

I personally don't see any logic spending tens of billions on a weapon used for the purpose of war from someone who knows every technological problem, defect and vulnerability with "that" weapon.

Can anyone please explain what is the point of Australia squandering hundreds of billions of tax payers dollars pretending it is a military power, when it has the resources and technology to build its own military equipment, but refuses too?

Wouldn't building your own military equipment give your country manufacturing; create jobs, and give you pride in your workmanship and technological expertise.

Then again, Australia has become so mongrelised, that the people wouldn't know what pride is if it bite them on the arse.

 

It's cheaper to buy them off the shelf, or at least parts of them. Otherwise we have to do our own R&D and all sorts of integration and testing before they even start actually building the first sub, and its often the most expensive part of a project so unless your willing to double or triple the actual cost then it's usually better to pick the most suitable best equipment on the market and do as much work from that here as possible... which is the idea. Your idea is much much more expensive, and with lots of additional risks which can blow out the cost through the roof while introducing a capability gap in a vital part of our defensive activity and capacity.

Because we want what we need, not what others are selling, and because it's not a pure product being bought, its bits and pieces from around the world which are put together locally. We pick the best match, and then add our own bits and pieces. An open tender for the whole project would actually be moving too much of the project into foreign companies - as it stands now we still intend to do a lot of work locally, just not the stupid ALP fairy tale about designing and building our own subs. The unions and the ALP side of the story is 90% of the time 100% misleading political spin.

 

Water around America has the same salty taste as it does around Australia!

 

Abbott and the LNP are desperate for Australia for to be in a bad position, that way they can claim to be our saving hero's and out to fix it all up, but carefully avoiding it was they who brought the crisis to Australians.

This is especially so for Abbott the British citizen leading the LNP, and desperate to emulate Margaret Thatcher!

 

The answer is no, the US builds nuclear powered submarines for long range, long duration global duties. Australia needs a diesel electric medium range attack submarine with good littoral performance.

 

AT,
so what is your point, except for again pointing your finger at the ALP and the Greens, should we build subs here regardless, or what sort of tender would you prefer?
I don't get your drift....
Regards

 

Diesel engines?
Wouldn't coal be more suited, we have plenty of it....
Or maybe we should ask our sailors to use pedals as in pushbikes....
Cheerio

 

The existing subs, the Collin's, are diesel electric. The batteries only last so long before being drained under load, so they use surface running (or snorkel) on air breathing diesel engines to give the batteries a rest and recharge them. Battery power is the most quiet (more quiet then nuclear) and therefore preferable, but battery technology really dictates how these things are managed. So they putt around on or just under the surface until they 'need' to dive and use the batteries.

There are other new technologies around too, but its a balance of cost, risk, reward etc.... and its because these things are both very operationally specific but also there is a requirement for technological advantage over perceived/possible enemies, that designing and building them is better an exercise for the Navy etc to pick and choose what it thinks it needs from the best of what is available. In this regard the Lib's plan to use a competitive tender amongst evaluated best options, is the most useful way forward. It's different from an open tender because it shapes the process according to our requirements more, which in these cases is required.

The only thing an open tender brings to the table is the lowest price, but these work best with competing products of similar capability, and unfortunately its not relevant for complex and classified military projects like submarines. The only other way to reduce costs on these types of projects is to use off the shelf proven components and perhaps put them together in a unique way locally - which again, is the Libs plan.

 

Sorry mate,
with my previous post I was taking you on.....
Regards

 

Wouldn't the extra costs associated with R&D in the long term be more beneficial to Australians, if they built a sub that was more technologically advanced than anything currently available?

Wouldn't the mean that other countries would want to buy Australian made subs? Hence a massive manufacturing industry is born in Australia. There is such a thing as quality over quantity, and the Japanese & Germans proved that with their battleships during WW2.

Australia has a chance to build an outstanding sub from scratch, and everyone is just chucking the idea away. Maybe India will appreciate the chance to build subs, when its their turn.

 

Dunno, how long would the R&D take and who is in the market for submarines built to Australian requirements? Technology changes fast in those cutting edge military domains where secrecy relates to survivability for so much of their normal operations. Each country has its own requirements for sub's, based on where they will be operating and what systems they want to use. It's more about whats on the inside then whats on the outside. The Japanese ones probably are a great match because they are built to interoperate with the US, built to operate in the littoral archipelago environment but also with long ranges. The European ones might be suitable too but slightly different operating environments, and they had a bad experience with the Collin's on many fronts and need to learn from it.

But to try and develop stuff better then other people stuff is risky because often we don't know what they've got (so 'better' then what?), and nation's with greater risk tend to spend more already on those sorts of things for their own security. It's a niche/specialty market and you'd need something ground breaking to just waltz into the market and become a player. Remember just how much the US spends on defense... a large chunk of that goes to R&D alone. The only other strategy is to use the Chinese approach and to steal the information and build it locally

Its not the sort of project you build a industry around, and when the ALP rambled on about building a large number of new sub's under Rudd I had to roll my eyes and twitch a few times at the stupidity they peddle out to people.

 

It was my understanding that the Collin's Class sub was a structurally sound vessel, and the major problems occurred, when the sub's were out-fitted with technology purchased/outsourced from overseas countries. The overseas products and technology was not compatible with the sub. Would not building the complete sub and it components here in Australia have eliminated the negative response the Collin's sub received? Instead of trying to fit a round pole in a square hole, which is what they did with the Collins sub?

Very similar story to the 2015 Nissan X-trail. CVT automatic transmission made in the USA, and vehicle manufactured in Japan. They have major mechanical problems with CVT, because the units are not compatible.

 

Its unrealistic to think we can make the pegs to put in the holes, so its better to get something which already exists and fits together. R&D takes ages and by the time you've finished building your holes you might find the pegs have changed. It's the pegs which are most important.

The Collin's had lots of problems both from local production and foreign production (Europe). We had to go to ask the US to fix it for us.

 

Abbott has already dome a deal with Japan, in return for buying Abbott coal, Australians will spend more than the Abbotts coal worth buying the Japanese built submarines, he and the LNP are now running around pretending he did not, and japan will have to tender for along with Germany.

However on the bright side Abbott has ensured never again a Pearl Harbour, LNP purchase of Kamikaze submarines rid Japan of that need.

Captain Abbott and all the LNP crew are yet to tell the punter, at what point will Japan breach its own security in suppling the LNP with submarines.

 

Source? I'm not saying its untrue, but given the other stuff you post I hope your source is reliable (if it exists), or do you admit just making stuff up? The Lib's at least were able to stitch up free trade deals in that part of the world, so there's a lead if you have to construct a conspiracy to back it up LOL

 

Germany will not tender for the contract. Australia has nothing Germany wants.

 

I believe if you look at the fine print of every FTA deal Australia has made, you will find Australia got screwed every time.

Australia doesn't have the reputation as being the "bareback" country in the South Pacific for nothing.

Australians have become a bloody laughing stock, as its getting more difficult to do any serious business internationally being known as an Australian.

Thankfully, I have duel citizenship, and I now do business as a "non-Australian".

The last time I was overseas, there were a group of people laughing their heads off in a restaurant about how stupid Australians were allowing Aborigines claim they were the first people in Australia without them producing any scientific evidence or proof to validate their claims. Their boisterous laughter made me feel small and embarrassed.

If Australians travel, they would understand and recognise that this kind of professional stupidity just doesn't happen in other countries anymore.

 

Also good for avoiding child support payments I hear

 

Submarines are morphing into drones. No crew, no need for oxygen, etc. Just warheads.



It's starting...Who gives a flip about human occupied submarines anymore?

 

Well, you see...Australian politicians have no brains....they are 50 years behind the rest of the world....
We have to buy all this hardware to impress the rest of the world....dont forget all the war planes...(coming to
an air base near you).....
Thats why the rest of the world laugh at us.......
Australia......"wheres that".......... they cry amid raucous laughter......

 

Don't worry so much about what other people think. If you have a better suggestion for our ORBAT then go ahead and present it. Do you like the Green's policy perhaps... hang on, what is the Green's policy on Defence?

 

We all know how Swan was laughed at by the European community about how he claimed he saved everyone from the GFC, and was basically told to p.i.s.s - off back to his ant-hill and mind his own business.

Anyone who travel internationally definitely understands that Australian mentality is probably 20 years behind the rest of the world.

Maybe the geographical and isolation of Australia and its people is not such a good thing for intellect.