The Woolworths ANZAC Scandal and Populist Restrictions on Liberty

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by Steady Pie, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    24,506
    Likes Received:
    7,247
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG]

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/medi...zac-advertising-campaign-20150415-1ml8md.html

    In short: Woolworths ran a campaign asking people to send in pictures of their ancestors in WWI, and putting the caption "Fresh in our memories" over the top.

    In response, 2GB talk radio suggested that Woolworths ought to be "fined", and their listeners overwhelmingly agreed.

    [hr][/hr]

    This aptly demonstrates the complete apathy and disdain the public feels towards free speech and liberty in general. Woolworths should absolutely have the unobstructed ability to advertise in this way, to tell the ANZACs to (*)(*)(*)(*) off, or to say that they were a bunch of cowards. The populist outrage over this issue frankly makes me quite angry.

    The irony, of course, is that people prefer to destroy the freedom ANZACs fought for than to allow a goofy advertising campaign referencing them. Then again, given the propensity of the public to frequently trample liberties to save their idiotic notions of morality, I'm not sure it qualifies as irony.

    [hr][/hr]

    What's your take on the issue? Should Woolworths be fined? Should they be left alone to destroy their reputation by themselves? Should their executives be hung, drawn and quartered in public? Tarred and feathered?

    Here's another little irony for you: most of these fascists proposing legal penalties will swing by Woolworths on the way home from their inept career. None of them have the independent initiative to grow their own produce. Disgusting.
     
  2. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    SP.
    in times of glorifying the army (and to a certain degree glorifying war) Woolworth thought they could cash in, but it didn't work.
    I am happy to see that quite a number of people have enough decency in themselves to see the truth and low spirit behind Woolies foul attempt.
    Regards
     
  3. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    24,506
    Likes Received:
    7,247
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I have no problem with Woolworths' reputation being destroyed by this, nor with people boycotting them over it. I already boycott them myself.

    I have a massive problem with the state fining them though. The calls of the public (and some in the media) to do so are massively totalitarian and demonstrate the public's typical opposition to liberty. Democracy is antithetical to liberty.

    The law already "protects" the term ANZAC and enforces penalties to that end. Such regulation is fascist in nature and individuals are justified in using all retaliatory and evasive measures to avoid such a transgression of their liberty.
     
  4. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I have never understood the Australians' celebration of ANZAC day. The Dardanelles Campaign and in particular, the Gallipoli landing, was one of the more significant defeats suffered by British forces (of which the ANZACS were a small part) throughout history.

    Why it should be a source of national celebration for the Australians, completely eludes me. It would make as much sense for we British to celebrate the anniversary of Dunkirque, or the fall of Singapore, as some sort of national day.

    Coming from a very old military family myself, I mean no disrespect to the memory of the Australians and New Zealanders who fell in that campaign, (nor to Australians and Kiwis in general,) and I can totally understand the dignified and sombre commemoration of an event which took so many lives - 8,709 Australians, 2,721 New Zealanders, and 34,072 British - but I cannot understand the nationalistic, even triumphalist, celebration which seems to accompany this commemoration in the general Australian community.

    There doesn't appear to be a lot to celebrate. Of course Australian soldiers were brave and hardy (as they have always been - whether fighting under the Union Flag against the Boers, against the Germans in France, or against Vietnamese forces in South East Asia,) but they suffered a resounding defeat and withdrew in ignominy.

    Why not commemorate the 295,000 Australians who fought on the Western Front, and the 132,000 casualties they suffered - not to mention their victories and achievements, at Ypres, Passchendaele, Messines, Bullecourt, Thiepval, Pozieres, Le Hamel, Mont St Quentin, Villers-Bretonneaux, and Bellenglise?

    And why celebrate by getting drunk and using the Australian flag as a cape while staggering about? I would see that as an insult towards, rather than a commemoration of, the sacrifice of so many of their compatriots. Triumphalism is often ugly, and Aussies are so much better than that.
     
  5. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    24,506
    Likes Received:
    7,247
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Unfortunately, Australia was federated in 1901. WWI was when Australia first gained respect as a nation of its own, and the Gallipoli landing saw "us" gain a reputation as a brave people. That's the line anyway. In truth I mostly agree with you. We should never have been in the war, their lives were wasted by the state.

    Agreed.

    ANZAC day is a celebration of all Australian and New Zealand soldiers in all conflicts, with a special focus on Gallipoli. So yeah, I suppose we do celebrate those campaigns as well. Gallipoli is more of an easy symbol people can understand.

    What better way? We're Australians.
     
  6. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Excellent post,
    since John Howard something has changed, Anzac Day is now being misused as the extreme event of our nation building, as if we haven't existed before that.
    Puts all those in shame, which worked so hard before 1915, and which we have to be thankful for making Australia the country we know off today.....
    That has nothing to do with not recognizing our soldiers, who died in WW1.
    Regards
     
  7. mister magoo

    mister magoo New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    3,115
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think we can blame the media for lot of this, and as I said in a previous thread "Im sick of the Australian
    media". For some reason, these days we have to be reminded every five minutes on television that Australia
    participated at Gallipoli.
    I presume that this will continue for another three years as Australia "commemorates" its involvement
    in World War I.
    I think I am stating the obvious when I say that this, among many things has been commercialised to the max.
    My late grandfather fought at Villers Brettonoux and put his age up to enlist. He was one of the lucky ones who
    returned from the war alive. I was always proud to watch him march on Anzac Day, and still remember him today.
    Blame the media for commercialisation of Anzac Day, and remember that the media in Australia are like Frank
    Sinatra once said "a bunch of two dollar whores".
    As for Woolworths...they will make a quid any way they can.............
    Remember the Anzacs the way you wish, but you dont have to get p1ssed to do it.......
     
  8. Adultmale

    Adultmale Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    It doesn't make sense. "Fresh in our memories". No one alive today can remember WW1 so how can it even be in our memories? It certainly cannot be 'fresh' in ours or anyone else's memories. It is a stupid, senseless promotion that will only appeal to all the stupid, clueless bogons.
     
  9. axialturban

    axialturban Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    48
    It's not a celebration, its a day of remembrance for being tough and fighting hard against impossible odds, showing no fear and making the best out of a bad situation AND being the first major campaign of our forces for our nation it stands out with our remembrance of all armed service... ya know, being a remembrance day and all.

    Your thinking of Australia Day, that is different from ANZAC Day, people don't act the same way on both days.... not usually anyway. ANZAC day is dawn services and marches through the city of veterans and active duty military. By contrast Australia day is get drunk, eat flies accidently, let the dog eat your sausage, and choke on prawn shells day.
     
  10. Panzerkampfwagen

    Panzerkampfwagen New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2010
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's not a celebration. It's a remembrance. It's to remember the dead. Is not the anniversary of a defeat the perfect day to remember what was lost?
     
  11. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    That's what we have Remembrance Sunday on the 11th of November for, when the dead of WW1 and subsequent wars are remembered around the world. The distinct impression I get from most Australians is that ANZAC Day is a celebration (possibly of being Australian?)

    None of these look like sombre reflection to me.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'm not fond of displays of nationalism, and even less so of involving little children in things they cannot possibly understand.

    [​IMG]

    And wtf is this doing in an ANZAC Day march? There were no Americans anywhere near Gallipoli - the first US troops saw action in Europe in 1918!

    I'm sorry, I'm not being mean-spirited, and Australia has much to celebrate, but there appears to be a distinct air of triumphalism about these activities. I do not consider that appropriate in a commemoration of sacrifice.
     
  12. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeap,
    it is certainly a celebration, unfortunately. I wished it would be otherwise. And school children (students in our lingo) are trimmed at school.....
    Regards
     
  13. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, Panzer,
    it used to be a different gathering some 20 years back, but times have changed, so has our perception....
    Regards
     
  14. DominorVobis

    DominorVobis Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2011
    Messages:
    3,931
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think the whole thing is a storm in a tea cup. I believe Woolworths were just trying to show they too are thinking of things.

    Lots of businesses try to cash in on Anzac day. Like selling Aussie flags made in China.

    We celebrate the birthday of Jesus by spending huge amounts of money on each other, eating like pigs and getting drunk. We celebrate his death by trying to chocolate ourselves to death and we celebrate the disenfranchisement of The True Owners of Australia by seeing how big a bogan we can be.
     
  15. culldav

    culldav Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4,538
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48
    The Gallipoli campaign was a bungled campaign orchestrated by Churchill, that saw allied troops used as cannon fodder. And that's something to be proud of, and keep remembering every year. :roflol:

    Its a hard fact to comprehend, but Australians did not fight and die to save or help Australia during WW1, they fought and died helping to save England and Europe.
     
  16. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    24,506
    Likes Received:
    7,247
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Precisely. And we're still doing the same thing today. Australia needs to be the vassal of a more powerful nation. First it was Britain, then, under ANZUS, we looked to the US.

    For all the disagreements I have with Paul Keating, at least he tried to make us a regional South Asian power and move away from the US. We spent untold billions fighting their wars, enforcing their totalitarian copyright laws, and their drug wars.

    • get out of the Middle East
    • reserve military campaigns for genuine defense of the homeland, which is practically impossible due to the 3000km moat in every direction - stop fighting the wars of others.
    • enact a policy of unrestrained free trade. Reduce or abolish:
      • income and export barriers/tariffs
      • protectionist manipulation of our currency
      • manipulation of the labor market through price controls and immigration restrictions
    • propose treaties with Asian (and other) parties to lower barriers to trade on both sides

    This isn't the 1950s anymore. We can be prosperous, and we can have our liberty - but we're not going to get there on the current path.
     
  17. axialturban

    axialturban Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    48
    As mentioned already a couple of times in this thread, ANZAC Day is about all wars fought as a nation hence why the US is there :yawn:

    You must celebrate in a funny way.... waving your nations flag and clapping or cheering 'service' does not have to be a celebration, its a display of respect associated with the remembrance. These things started with returned service people and so a cheery event helped pip them up. I guess you've never been so that explains why your clueless about it, but it suprises me a little (not too much) that some locals agree with you

    :hmm:

    You seem to be clinging to your believe it was Australia Day, let it go, its not a 'celebration'... even if some people decided to celebrate what would they be celebrating and why?
    :alcoholic:
     
  18. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure what you are claiming. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of photographs on the web showing people cheering and waving flags on ANZAC Day marches - if that is not celebrating, I'm not sure what is. And I am quite aware of the tradition of Australia Day - which is a celebration of the landing of the First Fleet, and the beginning of European society in Australia - a perfectly understandable celebration.

    And do you not realise that your closing question is precisely what I am asking? :)

    And LOL, as for ANZAC Day being about all wars fought as a nation, that is so, but it is about all wars fought by Australians as a nation. Not all wars fought by any nation. :D

    I have spoken of this to many Australians, all of whom say that ANZAC Day is intended as a commemoration of the Australians who have fallen in battle, and it was never intended as a celebration, or any form of triumphalism.

    And I'm not sure quite where it is that I am supposed to have been in order to understand whatever it is to which you are referring. If you mean I am not an Australian ex-serviceman, that would be correct, but as I am a uni student, I'm not sure what significance that has. Is it your contention that only returned servicemen have any concept of the issues involved, or indeed are entitled to an opinion on the matter? That would put the vast majority of military historians at a distinct disadvantage would it not? :wink:
     
  19. DaS Energy

    DaS Energy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Abbott and the LNP are flogging it for all they worth. First they cheered on anybody making or possibly making a terrorist threat, and now they parade how we should not be afraid of what they have orchestrated, and attend Anzac marches so they have more victims to parade if things thing's go boom!
     
  20. DaS Energy

    DaS Energy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Abbott has cleared off to New Zealand, wont march with Australian vets on Anzac day. Maybe he's afraid they not wont a second class Australian in their parade, or Abbott is peeing himself that one of all the terrorists he has promoted will be in attendance!
     
  21. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Leo,
    for some of us our army has the highest ranking, that is even before the most conservative PM or God.
    They will never, and I mean never, allow any criticism towards our army, their existence or reputation, or those days where celebrations take place. These people worship our army, and good reasoning becomes impossible.
    I think this is because nothing is more important to them in showing off who we are. It has become the foundation stone of modern Australia. We were founded in 1915, and whatever you read in a history book is wrong.
    I think you have shown a very respectable and mature view of our current situation, good on you.
    Regards
     
  22. axialturban

    axialturban Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Your correct in using the proper term 'commemoration'. This covers the spectrum which includes rememberance and celebration, but I think your shifting your position quietly in the hope you don't get noticed so you don't get held to your initial definition of ANZAC celebrations;

    You clearly got it mixed up with Australia Day. You've shifted from accusations of ugly triumphalism, to people cheering and clapping and waving flags at a parade for what you mean by celebration, BS, don't squirrel out of your words. What is your point, no clapping and flag waving at a commemoration event or no drunken cape wearing triumphalism????

    If you cannot tell the difference between your initial position about cheering "triumphalism", and the actual respectful celebrations pointed out to you during a military commemoration, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume your being argumentative.... because your question has already been answered, except

    I assume that sentence is about my response to your question why a US serviceperson was in an ANZAC march. The US fought as allies here in the Pacific theatre, basically fighting the Japanese off our coastline while the Brit's ignored us, you know the whole 'shed blood in the same mud shooting the same thug' thing.... so the US presence is not about other people's wars it's about the ones we fought in.

    Huh, no it wasn't, it was had you ever been to any ANZAC day events. Don't be so quick to attack and insult something if you've never experienced.... ask questions yes, but no need to be a richard about it, especially about this particular topic where people have lost loved ones.
     
  23. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    AT,
    we need to go back to commemoration, and away from celebration.
    This is of quite some importance, as it has to do with acknowledging those conflicts, we shouldn't have attended. We desperately need this in order to grow up. At this point in time, we take order from others.....
    No one here denies our fallen soldiers respect, please keep that separate.
    Regards
     
  24. axialturban

    axialturban Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    48
    It's not separate, it was one of his main points about how people acted. Your view on taking orders is incorrect, its more complicated then that and simplifying in that way does nothing to represent anything useful to warfighting, except demonstrate your own views on nationalism.
     
  25. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Axialturban, I have lived and studied in Australia for roughly five years now. I think I am reasonably familiar with the Australian lifestyle and traditions. Again, I am not sure why you are attempting to make this a personal issue, and be offensive whenever the opportunity presents. I stated that, given the events it commemorates, I did not really understand the significance of ANZAC day, and the manner in which it is seemingly celebrated. I was not disrespectful of the ANZAC legend (how could I be, as my country was far more involved, and suffered far greater losses, than Australia in that military disaster).

    I have discussed this with my many Australian friends and, without exception, they share my wonder at how this commemoration has developed. A number of Australian posters here have supplied me with valuable information, and thus far, it is only you who have seen fit to make ungracious insinuations and accusations.

    I don't know why this is so, but I see little point in furthering this discussion with you on the present basis. But thank you for your thoughts upon the matter - it is all grist for the mill. :)
     

Share This Page