What if Germany and Japan were victorious in WWll ?

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by kgeiger002, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    Hypothetically let's say the Allies lost Europe and the Pacific. How long before an all out assault on US mainland would have occured? Or would it have occurred? If an invasion did take place would the US been have been able to repell it? How would our world be now?
     
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Never.

    Neither Germany nor Japan had in their plans that the US (or even the Americas) would be invaded.

    Their long term plans envisioned the US becoming minimalized, as well as Australia and the rest of Europe not controlled by Germany and Asia not controlled by Japan.

    A minimilized US without allies would not be a threat, and eventually it would become an insignificant nation, about as important on the world stage as Bolivia is today.
     
  3. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are loads of factors but I agree Japan never wanted to or would be able to successfully invade the mainland US. The geography and distances would make it unworkable. Japan's interests were always in Asia and even if the war ended with their nominal victory, I'd expect they'd face on-going conflict in that area with little aid or support from anyone else. There could well be on-going conflict in Europe too, between the new German Reich and Russia. The USA (and the rest of the Americas) would probably largly keep to themselves.
     
  4. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I believe it would have been as difficult or more, than the Japanese conquest of China during WWII.
     
  5. Pandrea

    Pandrea Member

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    Excuse me, but this is not possible. US alone was stronger than Axis. Axis couldn't win.
     
  6. gorte

    gorte Banned

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    yes, Yakamoto himself said that it was impossible to invade the US. We'd just have had to make more nukes, that's all. the Axis never had a chance, actually. Not even close, and not even WITHOUT Russia bearing the brunt of the fighting in Europe and others bearing it in Asia
     
  7. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I believe the Romans may have missed the memo, at Cannae.
     
  8. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In 1941 the USA wasn't more powerful than the Axis.

    The USA being a maritime nation always had a competent and decent size navy but the U.S. Army was a different story.

    But Japan never had any intentions of occupying the CONUS, they just wanted the USA, UK and the Dutch out of Asia.

    Hitler never had any intentions of attacking and occupying the USA, read Mein Kempf. It's all there what Hitlers intentions were and it didn't include the USA.
     
  9. Pandrea

    Pandrea Member

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  10. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    I really enjoy the perspective all of you bringing to the table. From my perspective...I really don;t know. That's why I asked. Just wanted to hear from knowlegable people in regards to the subject. Please keep bringing all your knowledge/perspective!
     
  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. Just by going to the "Naval Forces" graph, it shows that Germany had an aircraft carrier when the truth is, it was never completed or commissioned. It shows Germany had no battleships, cruisers and battle cruisers aren't even listed which Germany and the Royal Navy had and even the U.S. Navy had two by 1944.

    Always go to the Wikipedia "Talk Page" when using Wiki.

     
  12. gorte

    gorte Banned

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    the truth is that the German effort to build an A bomb failed MISERABLY. The Nazis had nothing like the resources needed to succeed at that effort.
     
  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well the hypothetical that the OP mentioned didn't say how the Axis would defeat the Allies. That's sort of a given.

    Once the US revved up it's industrial power, it could outproduce any other power, but what if Edith Keeler had successfully lead a pacifist movement in the 1930's that kept the US out of World War II, or we didn't get into it until it was too late? Or if the Germans had successfully invaded Great Britain, There would be no place to stage a European invasion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yeah, Jewish nuclear physicists!
     
  14. gorte

    gorte Banned

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    if Hitler had had any sense, he'd have attacked russia FIRST! Then the rest of the world would have supported him! With his back secured, it would have been simple to sweep down and grab the Suez and the oil fields, then Gibraltor and England. Then only the nukes could have dislodged his hold on Europe.
     
  15. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Poland stood between Germany and Soviet Russia.

    What left wing revisionist don't teach is that when Germany invaded Poland from the west, two weeks later the Soviets invaded Poland from the east.

    Poland's purpose has always been to be a buffer zone between Germany and Russia.

    I don't think going to war against England and France or occupying France was the original intentions of Hitler, his eyes were always to the east.

    It was England and France who declared war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland.

    If you read "Mein Kempf" he wasn't a big supporter of colonialism like England and France were. He was more aligned with the USA. In Mein Kempf he compares America as a triangle or pyramid with the USA as the base at the bottom and it's small possessions (which were nothing more than coaling stations for the Navy) above the base while England and France it was a complete opposite where their colonial possessions were larger than their nation.

    In Hitlers own words, the only interview ever conducted of Hitler by an American.

    And so few have ever read it because there's some who don't want you too.


    Liberals tried keeping this interview of Hitler off the internet for over a decade. If you visit a large public library or research library you can read the entire uncensored 70 minute interview. Hitler was a socialist just like the Nationalist Socialist Party name says it is.


     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Not really, for one simple reason.

    The US did not have enough population capable of serving in uniform to take over Germany and/or Japan. Sure it could have made all the equipment that was needed, but it could not have produced enough people to operate it by themselves. That is why it was an Allied victory, no matter who provided most of the equipment.

    Do you mean Admiral Yamamoto?

    He never said it was impossible to invade the US (in fact, Japan invaded the US in several locations, some successfully). What he said was not possible essentially was victory against the US, because he had been stationed in the US and knew our industrial capabilities.

    Japan did not even want to attack the US in 1941.

    What Japan wanted was the Dutch East Indies and some of the British territory in the area (Hong Kong, etc). But they would have placed themselves in a highly vulnerable position if they had gone after them and left the US sitting right astride their main supply lines to those areas. So they had to neutralize the Philippines, which meant going to war with the US.

    But nto until late 1942 - early 1943. For the first half of the US involvement in the war, the US was very much behind, both in equipment produced and in men available. That is why D-Day was not until 1944.

    And Germany was nowhere close to an atomic bomb. They were trying to jump straight to fusion without a starting fission explosion, something that is impossible even today. Hitler did not understand Atomic Fission, and saw it as a combination of junk science ("Jewish Physics") and Chemical Warfare (because of the radiation, he specifically forbid the use of chemical weapons).

    Oh, they actually had the resources (Japan was also very far along their research into a fission weapon).

    The problem was that they were going about it the wrong way. There is ample evidence that they were using some of their heavy water combined with explosive lenses to create a direct fusion weapon without fission. If this was possible, they would have beat the US to the Nuclear Bomb. But it is impossible to reach the heat and pressure needed to start a fusion explosion with standard explosives, so they all failed.

    But if physics worked differently, they might have actually achieved it.

    Sorry, geography fail here.

    In reality, WWII for the most part started when Germany and the Soviets invaded Poland. And in order to get to the Soviet Union, Germany would still have had to invade Poland, so this entire point is really pointless.

    Germany simply could not have invaded the Soviet Union without first going to war with England and France, because Poland was in between the two. And if it had passed through Poland and gone after the USSR, then France and England would have invaded Germany as quickly as they could assemble the forces.
     
  17. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    ... personal kommissars and probationary wives may already be a reality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    imagine the left making fun of the Right, then; alles klar Frau Kommissar?
     
  18. Pax Aeon

    Pax Aeon Well-Known Member

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    `
    Outside the scientific realm, as a hypothesis contains assumptions and concessions made for the sake of argument which are not necessarily grounded in fact, I'll venture at least one narrow conjecture regarding Germany.

    Had Operation Valkyrie succeeded, the Wehrmacht would have instituted marshal law and according to my scenario, sue for peace...at least surreptitiously. Heer takes over the German state, commands the Waffen-SS to report to his (the Wehrmachts') authority (with the idea of disbanding it along with the Gestapo) and arrests all the hard core Nazi's such as Himmler, Goering, Eichmann, etc. The death camps, part of the Final Solution, would have been disbanded to free up much needed assets such as soldiers and material. An immediate cover-up would ensue.

    Peace talk with the US and Britain would take a serious swing and a temporary cease fire would take place. While British and American public opinions remain strongly anti-German, the fall of the Nazis will significantly diminish the intensity of fanatic German hatred. Stalin however, would would continue to militarily attack Germany. With a cease fire, and absent Hitlers insane direction, the German army withstands the Soviet onslaught. Given Roosevelt's and Churchill's deep mistrust of Stalin, little or no aid would be sent to him. The Soviet tactic of throwing masses against the enemy, creates casualties so high, Stalin will soon have to sue for peace.

    Italy would be abandon, troops withdrawn, and at least a temporary Monarchy installed. Peace talks with the Western Allies quickly stall because the Allies insist on German surrender, and the German junta's unrealistic territorial demands. That takes a turn when the three discuss the fate of the Soviet Union. The junta is now forced to tone down its peace requests but Germany's now favorable military situation along the Ukraine also forces the realignment of demands from the West and faced with the perspective of waging a war of attrition with Germany, the Allies are obliged to tone down their war aims, too.

    Because of this, a UN is never founded and a the Jewish state of Israel, is never created. Vichy France is given its autonomy while the northern sector remains German protectorate, with possibility of using it as a bargaining chip later. With the exception of Greece, (which is not Slavic) Germany retains control of that are and much of the Ukraine. The atomic gambit, while talked about in negotiations, is never fully played...at least for now.

    `
     
  19. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe the Ancient Romans didn't have a nuclear bomb. I'll google to verify.
     
    Dark Star and (deleted member) like this.
  20. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    There were several reasons the Nazis did not succeed. The main one is that they initially did not think the war would last that long, and knew their chances of victory were much higher if they could complete their invasion before the other side had a chance to prepare defenses. So they focused most of their resources on the war effort. They knew this type of technology would take many years to develop, and by that time the war would be over. The second reason is that by the end of the war, resources were stretched thin and the Allies had severely damaged their industrial capacity.
     
  21. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ja, I think you and HonestJoe are at least close to the reality here. American fears of invasion from Germany and/or Japan were war propaganda.

    America's problem is that it takes its propaganda seriously..
     
  22. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In 1941 the U.S. military and government had no clue what Japan's war plans were. It wouldn't be until after the war that the allies discovered what Japan's war plans were.

    Before the battle of Midway, Hawaii and the west coast of the CONUS lived in fear of invasion.

    The Basic Plan for the Greater East Asia War:

    The Basic Plan as formulated by the Japanese and placed into effect in December 1941, consisted of the following three phases:

    It's all here -> http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/PTO-Campaigns/USSBS-PTO-1.html


    Japan's Strategy: -> http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/AMH/AMH-23.html



    America's Early Plans for a War with Japan:

    THE EVOLUTION OF ORANGE PLAN -> http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/III/USMC-III-I-1.html

    http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/ref/AdvBaseOps/index.html#contents
     
  23. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    not realistic, try to compere industries USA with Germany/Europe under G. occupation
     
  24. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    How does that work if we get "overrun"?
     
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    The only problem here is that it is doubtful that the Allies would have accepted a pro quo ante bellum. Any agreement for a cease fire with Germany would have had as an absolute minimum a withdrawl from all occupied nations, including Belgium, France, Poland, and Eastern Europe to include the Soviet Union.

    I doubt the Soviets would have agreed to this, and the moment the Final Solution was discovered in Poland, the war would more then likely have been on again.

    Sure, saying things like that sounds nice, but the problem is that you would have had to have all the Allies to agree, and I just do not see that happening, no matter how much Germany may have wanted it.

    Actually, they did have a pretty good idea.

    For one, Major Earl Ellis had already pretty much written out the entire plan that WWII took, from beginning to end over a decade earlier. And we already had War Plan Orange, which laid out pretty accurately both the Japanese general attack, as well as the US response.

    And finally, there was MAGIC. This was the breaking of both the Japanese Naval and Diplomatic Codes (PURPLE). Key members of the government actually knew the attack was about to happen even before the Japanese diplomatic staff did, but it was not soon enough to have any effect upon the opening stages of the war.

    But to have industries, you need 2 key items.

    First of all, you need customers. With most of the rest of the world occupied or broke, there were no customers to sell things to. The war time footing almost bankrupt the country, and without a restoring of peace time production for profit, the gears of industry would have ground to a halt.

    And finally, you have raw materials. The US was already pretty much stripped to the bone in a great many resources, from rubber and iron to tin, copper, and many other minerals. Wood, food, and oil were really the only materials that we were not running out of when the war ended.

    This is what I mean by being marginalized. The US was and is a mercantile industry. No raw materials coming in and finished goods going out, our economy largely collapses. Without countries to sell to, our entire economy would have been turned back to early 19th century levels. That is marginilized in the mid-20th century.
     

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