The Sturmcarrier / Shtorm Supercarrier

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by APACHERAT, May 19, 2015.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Move over Nimitz class carrier, there's a 100,000 ton super carrier over the horizon and it's not a PC carrier, it has manly urinals.



     
  2. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The bigger the boat, the bigger the target.
     
  3. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    My bet is this showpiece doesn't make it past the model stage. The Russian economy is contracting at a steady rate and they will have to kill it, assuming they really intended to build it in the first place. They might be building it for China, though.
     
  4. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When "Janes" talks, all of the worlds navies listen. When it comes for a source on military weapons platforms be they ships, aircraft, artillery, trucks or tanks, "Janes" is recognized as being the best source in the world. Just about every military in the world subscribes to "Janes." < http://www.janes.com/ > I wish I could afford to subscribe to "Janes." But I'm signed up for their newsletter.

    As you saw when you went to the link, to read more you had to log in. It's not cheap.

    So the second best source on the worlds navies and ships is the U.S. Naval Institute and I've been a member now for over 35 years now. I still wait every month for the postman when he delivers "Proceedings."

    What I found interesting is what the Ruskies are calling this super carrier, "Shtorm" as in assault carrier.

    I've been studying the Soviet/Russian navy for decades now. When the Soviets/Russians build a warship, they are built for one particular mission. The Russian Slava class cruisers was built for one mission, to sink American super carriers. They have a second mission of showing the flag in gun boat diplomacy in geopolitics. The former Soviet Kiev aircraft carrier is really just a cruiser that has a flight deck. It's armed with the same supersonic (Mach 3.5) 2,000 lb. semi armor piercing anti-ship missiles as the Slava class cruisers carry.

    The Kiev class carriers had one primary mission, to deny NATO ASW forces access to the Soviet ballistic missile submarine bastions.

    You noticed when you looked at the photo of the model of the "shtorm super carrier" it looks almost like the Royal Navy's new super carrier but 30,000 tons larger.

    The Royal Navy plans to build two 70,000 ton super carriers. The first one has just been launched. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft_carrier > Now they are waiting for their F-35 B aircraft that will be deployed on the HMS Queen Elizabeth.
     
  5. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

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    Jane's job is to sell books to armchair generals and admirals. If you only go by stats sheet to decide which military vehicles is the best you're up for a nasty surprise in the field.

    What makes the US carrier such fearsome ships isn't their stats but the fact that the USA has used them successfully in war ever since they created the first one. Their crews are trained, the strategies and tactics are proven.

    When was the last time Russia or China used a carrier in actual combat... Ever.... When was the last time their pilots flew multiple sorties from carriers? The only countries who have any real experience operating carrier in actual combat are the UK, France and funny enough Japan even though they don't have any real carrier today but the Hyuga class is getting quite close to being one if they ever put some VTOL F35 on them and it shows that it would be trivial for the Japanese to start building real carriers again.
     
  6. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re: Janes

    Janes has been around for over a hundred years. When the Bismark and the Yamato battleships sunk into the sea, there was a copy of Janes Warships on the bridge just like today, you'll find a Janes Warship on every American warship.

    It comes out every year, this years edition of "Janes Fighting Ships" just a cool $ 1.200 bucks. The last one I bought was $600, that was some years ago.
    It's not something that Janes sells to anyone, you have to buy it the old fashion way, using a telephone.

    Just their monthly magazines like "Jane's International Defence Review" cost $392. per year.



    When was the last time an American anti-ship missile was used in actual combat...Ever... ?

    It was the Soviets who developed the first anti-ship missile and it was a Soviet built anti-ship missile to sink another ship with a missile.

    Have you ever studied Soviet or Russian naval tactics ?
     
  7. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I really don't think they're about to anchor off NYC anytime soon.

    Russia is a world power, They have a need, purpose and duty to project power worldwide. Who knows, they may be on our side when that happens
     
  8. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

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    Actually the German had anti-ship missile during WW2. They were wire guided and launched from HE111 and FW200. They used them in the med and during the invasion of Italy...

    Russian naval history isn't something to brag about... They got decimated in 1905 by the fledgling Japanese navy. They even got their "T" crossed twice in the same engagement. They didn't do anything during the First World War of note. Beside sinking refugee ships they did nothing of note again during the Second World War.

    So please spare me the propaganda. A ship is only a tool. It's the one trained in using it that makes the difference.
     
  9. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting. While still not built, I wonder who the target customers are.

    Also interesting that they are going with a non nuclear power plant.
     
  10. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you have it. Russia always wanted to be a maritime nation with seafaring population to sail those ships. But some nationalities or ethnic groups just make better sailors than others. Russians never made good sailors.

    The best sailors came from the British Isles and your Nordic and Germanic countries. The natives from the Sandwich Islands (Hawaiian Islands) were a prize to have serving on any ship, born maritimers, it's in their blood.

    The New England states in America were known for having the best sailors in the world.

    The Royal Navy use to stop American ships in the middle of the ocean and impress American seamen in to service aboard her majesty ships until it was brought to a halt during the War of 1812.

    The Italians were never great sailors but during the late 19th Century through WW ll, they were better than most when it came to naval gunnery.
    Japan produces some pretty good seamen. India is a joke.

    France, Spain, not to shabby but they don't compare to the British or Americans.

    The question that has been and being debated at the USNI, USNWC and the USAWC, with the changing demographics in America will we still be able to man our ships with competent sailors and still fill the boots of the Army and Marine Corps with people who have a warrior mentality and can shoot straight ?
     
  11. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    China is #1 on the list if it ever gets out of a shipyard, maybe India, but India is buying more from other countries these days rather than their former supplier Russia. Few other countries can afford a carrier and its maintenance costs and requirements. I suppose the Saudis could, but Saudis would rather buy from a proven provider than Russia, given the Russian support for Iran.

    While Jane's may be listing it, that doesn't conflate to actually being built and on line in the future. Russia is struggling badly, and its internal problems are mounting up rapidly; I don't see them having the time and stability to devote to this for the foreseeable future. Maybe in 10-15 years, after yet another putsch or two. Throw in an even longer time for training, etc. you're looking at 20 years or longer for a country without an existing experience base to train even the most basic techs.

    Yes. This is a marketing ploy, which is why I bet it's being promoted for foreign sale rather than Russian use.
     
  12. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I figured China would be on the list, they have been training for carrier ops for a while IIRC. Kinda fits with their bumping around in the south china sea.
     
  13. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

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    Between the T-14 (tank) and PAK FA (fighter jet), and now this new carrier on the drawing board; eventually Russia will run out of oil & gas money to spend.

    Europe is slowly converting to renewables, other than maybe China, I don't see Russia's customer base expanding. They do have a lot of oil & natural gas, but even with that their economy is 1/8th that of the United States and the EU.

    They cannot compete long term with the U.S.; and they know it. Their goal is to remain a regional power only..frankly a large Navy is the last thing they need.

    Brazil has a bigger economy than Russia.

    I have no idea what folks are fearing.

    Between the EU and the United States...these economies are 16 times larger than Russias.

    They could never compete in an actual conventional war, they'd go broke trying. It's why they like to wave around their nuclear aresenal..."we got nukes...we got nukes"

    So does the U.S. and we're building new ballistic missile submarines to house them in.

    If Russia wants to bring on the apocalypse, I suppose they can, but it will only assure their own destruction simultaneously.

    Oil & Gas revenue will only take you so far...peak Oil is rapidly approaching...the future is renewables. I do not see Russia adapting well when that happens.
     
  14. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

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    Actually, the price per barrel is falling because we are moving away from peak oil. Those 70's estimates of world oil reserves were way off base and didn't take into account any of the new oil discovery (they couldn't really know) or the new shale oil extracting process.
     
  15. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The chi-coms have the money, otherwise I really can't think of anyone else.

    India wants to have a blue water navy, but their sailors can still be seen going barefoot on the weather deck. :roflol:

    What I have read in the USNI "Proceedings" and "Janes" that India still doesn't have the shore infrastructure needed for supporting a blue water navy.

    If Japan ever decides to build another real aircraft carrier, they'll build it themselves.
     
  16. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

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    They kind of already do, as I said previously. The Hyuga class which comprise of two ship, the Hyuga and Ise will be fitted with F-35 VTOL Lightning II. And for a bit of trivia, both the Hyuga and Ise take their name from two battleship that were converted to carrier during WW2 in 1943. They are comparable to the Italian Giuseppe Garibaldi and the Spanish Prince of Asturia.

    Japan is also building the Izumo class which is bigger. The Izumo is already in service since 2013.
     
  17. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Hyuga class DDH are exactly what the DDH refers, to destroyer-helicopter. It's only a 14,000 ton ship. Just like the Soviet/Russians Kiev class aircraft carriers are nothing more than cruisers with a flight deck. I suppose all can be called dual purpose ships. The Japanese had to classify their carrier a DDH for political reasons, their Constitution.

    It was suggested that the Japanese could deploy the F-35 B on this ship, but to the best of my knowledge Japan has only ordered the F-35 A. If they have ordered the F-35 B, I must have missed it.

    But it's logical to deploy the VTOL F-35 B on the Hyuga class carriers and I'm sure the chi-coms will have monkeys flying out of their butts.
     
  18. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

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    A DDH is more like the old Canadian Iroquois class, that is, a real destroyer with an aft flight deck with hangar and 4 helo.

    The Hyuga and Izumo are more like light carrier or your own Wasp class assault ship. And it isn't that small going with this picture considering the Nimitz class dwarf just about anything else:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/US_Navy_091117-N-6233H-234_The_aircraft_carrier_USS_George_Washington_%28CVN_73%29_and_the_Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force_helicopter_destroyer_JS_Hyuga_%28DDH_181%29_transit_the_Pacific_Ocean.jpg/1920px-thumbnail.jpg

    The Izumo is about 50 meters longer than the hyuga.

    - - - Updated - - -

    According to wiki (for what it's worth) they're both designated as ASW CARRIER.
     
  19. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Japanese build excellent ships today. They learned a lot from their mistakes during WW ll.

    The Japanese Kongo class destroyer is just as capable as our Arleigh Burke destroyers. It also has the Aegies weapons system.
     
  20. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How much Russia needs to get money from exports to depends on how much it needs to import to build the T-14, PAK FA and the new carriers & that is quickly becoming zero due to import substitution programs forced on it by US & client states sanctions.
    Russia is "a" world power & has been ever sense the fall of the Soviet Union, their goal is to have six carriers with two each of three types. The Mistrals would have been the first two & the Sturmcarriers would be the two largest ones.

    As for competing with the US the US cannot even compete with the a US that is 18 trillion dollars in debt & just prints more money to build more ships & aircraft.

    The EU and the United States do not have economies that are 16 times larger than Russia's & China's combined & some day you could add India & Iran to that as well. What some people fear is that the US will get sucked in by it's own propaganda of superiority & launch a war against Russia & maybe China at the same time in order to save the petrodollar, no more petrodollar - no more US as world hegemone.
    With the drop in the price of oil the a total switch over to renewables is still a long way off. A lot of Russia is doomed people only consider exports & not production for domestic consumption.


    What I found interesting on another forum is that the Hulk of an aircraft carrier,navigation system & propulsion system make up only a small part of the overall cost of the ship.

    Freddy.
     
  21. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

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    We are unlikely to build them in the nearby future, recently navy's funds were downgraded in favour of ground forces. Apparently Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang are the priorities now.
     
  22. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Don't know but two Mistral type ships would be extremely useful for natural disaster relief missions where they can get close enough.
     
  23. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Jane's once had entries for the Ulyanosk and United States class aircraft carriers. Remember how many of those got built?
     
  24. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re: United States class aircraft carrier, it resulted in the "Revolt of the Admirals." Just about around the time when President Truman tried to disband the Marine Corps.



     

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