As there will be an in/out referendum in the UK on EU membership in 2016 I was wondering what exactly people feel are the real benefits of continued EU membership? At the moment I will vote to leave the EU (although I expect to loose the vote) I am curious what people think are the real benefits of membership along with what they think we loose by continued membership. For me sovereign power is of utmost importance, UK laws above EU legislation, the idea of Britain run by British voters seems a lost cause at the moment, swamped by 100's of laws from the EU in Brussels which we the British have no power to opt of & have no chance of re-introducing our own sovereign laws unless we leave the EU. As for trade within the EU, we have GATT & WTO agreements that provide all the reassurance we need. And as for the notion of "a voice in European affairs" I just laugh at that argument, we have no voice that would stop the inevitable juggernaut towards a federal European state, one of political, military & economic unity. That will result in Britain no longer being an Independent Country.
I would think, it's inevitable for the UK to leave the EU longterm anyhow. The people and her politicians seem to be stuck in 19th and 20th century geopolitics rather than working with the counterparts from continental Europe. It seems to me that they misunderstand the purpose of the EU, and therefore the representation of British politicians in EU policies were disappointing at best so far; or at least in recent memory. I would personally argue that the reason for this lies in the history of the UK. It's geographic isolation from competitive governments probably created a belief among the people, that they do not need the help of other peoples and need not to work with them. It's quite different for us in central Europe. We have had foreign invasions and understand the necessity of working with other peoples. Something essential to insure some stability as a matter of a fact. This necessity developed an attitude to work with our neighbors independent of their views, and reach agreements which benefit peoples. I think it would be really bad economically for both the UK and EU if the UK chose to leave, but I think it's simply unavoidable due to the attitude difference I mentioned. As soon as the UK leaves the EU will be able to progress much faster as the German and French ruling will fall under no resistance. The EU will be on a fast track to becoming a country in the shape of the USA or the UK. Independent countries within a country, which I would assume has to be the ultimate goal...
I thought I didn't address all of your posed questions before, which I wish to do now. Indeed, the ultimate goal is to create one country called the EU and the UK, Germany, France and every other member being as independent as Scotland or England are within the UK. Definitely the policies and laws in that regard will make the UK less independent and more and more a bigger part of the EU, but whether policies are made in Brussels or in London shouldn't matter. It should be up to the politicians to work in a way together which is beneficial for as many of the 500 million (or more) citizens of the EU as possible. Longterm benefits are huge obviously because it is definitely easier to compete with countries like China, India and USA if you're living in a country with 500 million people rather than an independent Scotland with it's 5.3 million. Any company, which has access to only the Scottish market can't possible compete with giants from the US and therefore the local markets here in Europe get monopolized by foreign companies. Since the UK is one of the most important economies in the world, its independence wouldn't be as catastrophic as a Scottish independence (strictly economically speaking). However British companies would loose a lot of leverage in the continental market. You have to keep in mind that Vodafone is treated like a local company in countries outside of the UK. Also because of the economic situation of France, UK, Holland and other countries, it is pretty hard to create an actual growth in the market. What happens in the stock market isn't realistic as you undoubtably realize. The value of a stock is not determent by what the company is worth, not by what people think it's worth, but only by what people think it will be worth tomorrow. So while the stock market might signify nice growth, it's a fake growth. If the stock of (just to pick at random) BMW jumps by 2% it doesn't mean BMW actually sold X amount of cars that day and that the company physically grew by 2%... So the realistic growth of a country as developed as UK is very hard to achieve and it's a cheaper investment into Rumania, Poland, Greece, etc. to create a new market to sell Vodafone products for example. To top it off, when we send money into those areas, we usually use some contractor from back home in those lands, so the profit remains here. Independently how you look at it economically, the western powerhouses (UK, France, Germany) get much more back in terms of revenue for their companies, customers, etc. than they ever put in. Ideally they even get to run the country and adjust them the way they please according to their needs. It is just a shame that so far most British politicians didn't want to be in the driving seat of this development. I believe the result of the UK leaving is (since most people expect that to happen sooner or later) that the UK's market will crash for 10 years. The repercussions are unclear. Will British banks have to sell stocks of their acquired banks on continental Europe? Will Vodafone have to sell? Will the EU invest into Ireland becoming more dependent on EU economics rather than UK's like it is now? Where and when will UK's companies be able to get the replacement markets? And even more importantly: Will the UK be able to compete internationally with US, EU, China and India in 50 years time? It's definitely a delicate situation but I cannot see for either side a good outcome if the UK leaves the EU. I personally would have wanted for the UK to switch to the Euro and make it the most traded currency of the world. With that the most important stock market would have moved from New York to London. An easy step in my mind if Brits were in the driving seat. Germany got the central bank, France the supreme court, and it wouldn't be hard to argue that the biggest and most centralized stock market of the EU ought to be in London... __________ It is definitely important to keep in mind several things: The UK's loss will probably be greater than the EU's. The UK doesn't use the Euro, so it will have little effect on the value of the currency we use. The ports and trading the UK is famous for, are essential to the UK's market, not continental Europe's. So the lack of access to British ports won't effect people on continental Europe, but it will effect Ireland. Since Ireland will remain a EU member and also has the Euro, undoubtably investments into Irish ports will increase to avoid EU intern products leaving EU territory and therefore also hitting the British trade. I wonder if EU products and UK products will then fall under an import tax again. If that is the case the prices of essentials (i.e. food) in the UK will rise, while UK products become more costly for us and loose customers. I think the UK's economic insurance is the royal family and especially the Queen. She personifies the international ties of foreign countries to the UK. Australia, Canada, etc. have her even on their money. So among those countries the acceptance towards British products is implemented to a degree through the personification of the Queen. They will definitely feel more responsible and willing to aid and buy products than people in i.e. Island.
If the membership in the EU has had any benefits, they have been completely cancelled out by the strain caused by large-scale immigration. The British people are overall no better off than they were before 1993.
Can you find any numbers to support that claim. Average income per capita, health care, HDI, etc.? In which stats is the UK clearly worse of today compared to 1993?
I think many in the UK understand only too clearly the purpose of the EU. A Federal state run fro Brussels / Strasbourg is the intended purpose of the EU... there is no pint in denying that fact. Do the British see this aim as desirable? You state that because continental Europeans have suffered many conflicts that you think it is desirable. Many British who have been involved in those same conflicts do not see it as desirable. We are an Island nation and that has a big influence n our thinking (although the Republic of Ireland are very pro-EU). What bothers me is the rush towards a Federal democratic socialist continent. Britons are generally a conservative people that like our own sovereignty & culture. The EU is a mechanism that wishes to destroy what we hold as our own self determined belief ( I accept not all Britons agree with this ) But why has the EEC become the EU. Why has free-trade amongst European nations become an EU Federal dream of one nation, one currency? Who does it benefit other than the large multi-national businesses. If war is desirable between the European states, the EU won't be able to prevent it. A war will happen. You are foolish to believe that the EU Federal state is the solution to European problems. The EU IS the biggest problem for European people. The sooner it is destroyed the better.
I don't know, seems like a tough deal. After noting that these negotiations to keep Greece in were "difficult" I read this: Loan me $8.1B more and I'll give you that $1.8B payment that is due? WTH? http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-06-24-08-27-22
You can't drink yourself sober! So why do Countries think they can borrow themselves out of debt? Obviously they can't!! And Politicians all over the World are cheating the people trying to kid them that things will get better, well they won't unless we have a massive change. Do away with FIAT currency & fractional reserve banking for starters. I hate socialism as it usually peddles the greatest lies to it's electorate that you can spend your way to wealth. But I have always remembered the 1976 speech by Labour (Socialist) Prime Minister Jim Callaghan : "We used to think you could spend your way out of recession and increase employment by boosting government spending. I tell you, in all candour, that that option no longer exists. And in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion… by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step…” Why modern day Politicians haven't learnt the lessons of the past constantly annoys me!. I hate profession Politicians, I wouldn't let anyone into Government until they have lived for 10+ years as a real person & worker. And I wouldn't allow any Politician to serve more that 10 years in office before they are made to go back to gainful employment. In short I hate most Politicians left & right They are mostly liars to the people they claim to represent.
We have so many good and talented people in our countries. There is something about our selection process that weeds them out and gives these offices to those that are much less qualified. I do not know the answer, but this is something we need to continue to study until we figure it out. Take care, Zorro
I read that David Cameron has failed to secure any changes to the UK treaties within the EU. And that he wants us to vote in the 2017 in/out referendum on some theoretical promises that may or may not be given to the UK. What a joke this man is as an effective politician. He went into the negotiations like an employee asking a pay rise from his employer, saying "if you don't give me a pay rise I shall just accept it & continue to work for you". That kind of fool does he take the UK voters for? I am sure that all the media spin & lies about leaving the EU will win the majority of voters to say "yes" in the referendum, just out of ignorant fear. And they will forget that they have been "used as a fish for too long". What kind of fools have we become in the UK that we should be happy to accept a Prime Minister's failure to negotiate any changes to the EU constitution before we go & vote on the issue of contend membership of a federal state that has enslaved us to their will, & allowed mass immigration without any consent from the British people. I'm no "send them all home" kind of person, but I am a convinced that what the British people want is best decided by he British people & not enforced upon us by some bureaucrats in a European parliament where we have no right to veto laws with which we find offensive. I am yet to be persuaded by any argument from the pro-EU brigade that we should remain with the EU. In fact I think they have no argument of any worth other than scare tactics that to exit would destroy our economic prosperity. when in fact mass immigration has already destroyed the economic prosperity of the British working class, by driving down wages. The only people that mass EU immigration have enriched are the employers & the beaujour bohemian metropolitan trendies that get cheap wages from employing nannies & cheap service at their favourite restaurants from low paid EU migrants. The rest of us have to suffer the undesirable consequences of this foolish policy, especially hardest hit are the or working class that are deamonised by these beaujour bohemian metropolitan trendies lefties as "racist" for voicing their discontent over this mass immigration that they never voted for. Never in the history of Britain has such a massive influx of people occurred & we have never been asked whether we wanted this change, instead we have been presented it as a "fait de complet" & labelled as Nazis if we disagree with it.
There are none. I'm voting for independence in the referendum. - - - Updated - - - The only good thing to come out of the Calais crisis is that the longer it goes on the more likely it is that Britain will vote to leave the EU when the referendum finally comes.
There are lot of benefits: Brits are allow to enjoy uncontrolled immigration, to pay for all failed states, to subvert themselves to Bruxelles's unelected bureaucracy, and probably a thousands equal benefits.
In the UK we have a term for this-the EU's democratic deficit. Anti-EU campaigners argue that if we vote to leave the EU we'll resolve the issue of its democratic deficit, because all decision will be taken by an elected and accountable national government. There are two problem here. I) The UK Parliament has two houses, the house of commons and the house of lords. Only the commons is elected. Lords are appointed by the monarch on the advice of the PM. Is this really any more democratic than the EU? II) The problem of the EU not being democratic is massively exaggerated. It's true that the Commission is unelected, but the parliament isn't and parliament decides the commission. The choice of commissioners must also be screened by members of parliament and the commission is then put to a vote in the Council of Europe which is made up of representatives elected at a national level.
If the EU had not gone about its crazy expansion process, I would have been happy to vote to stay in it with some renegotiation on areas that even the EU agrees need looking at. However, it has chose to bring in a huge amount of countries that are fairly poor nations. The wealthy nations will drag these up. The poor will drag the rest down. We are already seeing that. Greece is being propped up with money from the other nations. In the best cases this money is coming from taxpayers. Money that should be getting spent on their own people is being handed to Greece. From there it will be squandered as there is no evidence Greece has changed its ways from previous squandering. In many more cases though, nations are themselves borrowing this money to give to Greece - with interest. Thereby daily dragging themselves further down. It is not a matter of if the EU implodes, but when.
There are certainly problems with the EU and a lot needs reforming, but leaving would be a disaster for Britain. Make no mistake - as a country we have so much to lose and very little to gain.
I have decided to vote no because the EU has stopped benefitting the people in favour of the multinational corporations, who through the free movement of goods and people have been able to suppress wages create poverty all with the blessing of the EU commission. I myself do wish to be a part of corporate Europe.
I see there is a lot of peoples who criticize current Europe and for the same reasons. This UE too early widened is made back to front only for the benefit of multinationals. It's possible to delete the borders between our countries when they have the same standard of living and the same level of taxes. For me, our various manners to live must be respected in our old nations. Today the target of this Europe appears clearly, to eliminate our nations and their various cultures. The uncontrolled extra european immigration will finish the destructive work. 2017? "(*)(*)(*)(*) the UE" said Victoria Nuland, for me, (*)(*)(*)(*) THIS UE !
Firstly we voted to join the Common Market after being lied to by Harold Wilson, he was specifically asked if by joining we would be at risk of losing some, if not all, of our sovereignty .. he replied that-that was an absurd notion. Secondly no person has had the opportunity to vote on these "ever closer ties", it should not the remit of any government regardless of their political stance to sign away what, in essence, belongs to the people. Thirdly, it is a myth that the UK could not survive outside of the EU, within the Commonwealth we have a number of countries whose economic standing is rising faster than most other countries .. yet because of EU rules we cannot negotiate with them. Fourthly, it is also a myth that leaving the EU will cost the UK jobs, it is estimated 4 million jobs rely or are related to the EU, what the pro-EU people don't tell you is that many more jobs in the EU rely on the UK .. for ANY EU country to cut ties with the UK should we exit would be more decremental to them than to us. I will be voting to get out of this failed experiment that we didn't even vote to be part of.
A new poll shows that a majority of Britons now want to quit the EU - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...aigning-in-referendum-100-Tories-to-warn.html A referendum in which the people will decide whether or not Britain should quit the EU is to be held before the end of 2017.
Actually it was Edward Heath that took us into the CM. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/jaWilson/1/newsid_2459000/2459167.stm
Whoops .. my mistake, it was Wilson who withheld information about staying in the EC prior to the 1975 referendum, and did not take us into the CM .. sorry about that. Though Heath also lied about the CM.
That new poll which shows 51% of Britons in favour of leaving the EU and 49% against - Apparently, the same poll also found that 22% of those who said they would vote to stay in the EU would change their minds and vote to leave should the European migrant crisis worsen. And along with the fact that the pro-EU Cameron, who has been trying to rig the referendum, has been defeated in the Commons over the issue of purdah, it's not looking good for the Europhiles at the moment.
If there are any benefits for the UK being in the EU then I fail to see it. The biggest principle for any country is to have absolute autonomy over it's sovereignty and rule of law, something which the EU has not been shy about it's aims in destroying. Regardless of what the real percentage actually is (there are too many conflicting figures on this issue to begin with), the fact is that hundreds of laws which effect our country has been made in Brussels. EU law in many cases supersedes British law and without any say or permission from the British public. The EU's leaders are unelected bureaucrats who nobody has ever heard of, some of whom are ex-communists from Soviet states. It is the very opposite of the essence of what democracy is supposed to be about. Then there is the scare mongering from the Europhiles, one argument is that we'd have to renegotiate all of our trade treaties with countries in the EU. Well the last time I checked you can be part of the EEC without being part of the political and economic union known as the European Union. Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are all part of the EEC and have trade agreements with all countries of the EU whilst not being restricted to being part of trading block which is only economic trading block in the world that is currently shrinking. These three countries have been able to have this sort of deal and have all largely benefited from it. Iceland is the only country in Europe to have a trade deal with China for god sake. The only difference is that they have no say in EU political policy but who in their right mind would want to be in a common European policy when it comes to international relations, trade agreements and the like anyway? Despite us being the 5th largest economy in the world, we aren't even allowed to have our representatives when the WTO has negotiation meetings. And that's not even going into detail about the disaster of the Euro. Several countries have felt the pain of being in the terrible idea of a single currency and none more so than Greece. I will not pretend that Greece isn't at some fault and doesn't have it's own problems but EU policy of financial bailouts and fiscal stimulus's putting the country in even more debt, raising the GDP to debt ratio a further 25% and then demanding the money to be paid back when the EU knows full well Greece doesn't have any has essentially grabbed the country by the balls and now the country that invented democracy is essentially a slave to the bureaucrats in Brussels. And I haven't even mentioned the dreaded word Immigration. The concept of not being able to control one's own borders and have a healthy limited immigration policy due to the free movement of people which has been forced on the British people has obviously angered a lot of people. The policy itself is a disaster because as long as you have a welfare state you cannot have an open border policy because eventually the welfare state itself will collapse. Those are just the main tipping points of why I am voting to leave the EU. And that's not even going into TTIP or the individual policies of the EU which have negatively effected our country.
Not a surprise you got no reply to your question! As there is nothing to lose leaving the EU. I often hear from pro-EU people that the UK has a large trade with the EU. With I assume the assumption they are trying to suggest that all this would be lost if we left the EU.... But the EU offers us nothing in free trade agreements that being a member of GATT & WTO - which we are. So as far as economic benefits we have nothing to gain from EU membership. The only people that would actually benefit are owners of large multi-national corporations that can drive down wages due to uncontrolled immigration... And the only people that advocate EU membership are the ignorant, BBC executive, owners of the multi-national companies, newspaper-executives & ....the stupid!
