For a change, how about an actual and honest discussion of Noah's Ark-

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Gorn Captain, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    Start with basic questions for believers in the Ark-

    How large was the Ark? Reference Genesis 6 as a start. Typically given at approximately 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits tall or....450x75x45 feet.

    It is described as having 3 floors, so you can easily gauge the square footage.

    Reduce it again for the walls of the stalls, cages, etc. Reduce it again to provide some room for 8 people to have atleast a bed and a table. (Noah, 3 sons, 4 wives)

    Now, how many animals, roughly, were onboard the Ark?

    How much food did each animal require every day?

    Let's suppose the Flood waters were "freshwater" and no storage onboard the Ark was needed...just to be generous.

    How long were the occupants of the Ark inside it, from the sealing of the loading hatch to the unsealing and off-loading at the mountains of Ararat? Typically it's given as a year to a minimum of 3 months.

    How much storage would the food for all those animals...AND Noah and his family take up of the square footage of the Ark's interiors. Either for a year's supply or even for "just" 3 months.

    How long would it take 8 people to feed each animal every day?

    How long would it take for 8 people to also water each animala every day?

    How long would it take for 8 people to remove solid waste as well as urine-soaked hay or sawdust from each stall or cage every day?


    BTW, checked several sources...ONE African elephant eats 300 pounds of leaves, bushes or grasses PER DAY.... causing it to produce about 165 pounds of dung PER DAY.

    There were two onboard the Ark....plus all the other large mammals from hippos to rhinos to giraffes to buffalo to moose to grizzly bears to elk, etc. etc.


    Now....run your numbers. How much room would each animal have....after you figured in living space for the humans AND storage of all the food needed?

    BTW, don't forget the plants. Most plants can't survive being underwater for weeks, even days. (Oh, and don't use them for food for the animals...or they'd be stripped in less than a week by the large herbivores and die.)

    More importantly....how long would it take 8 people to care, feed, water, muck stalls for every animal...every day? How many hours a day?

    A good reference is the staff of any large zoo. Do you think 8 people could care and feed and clean up for every animal at the San Diego Zoo in a 24 hour period?


    These questions are logical, scientific, and more importantly.....simple....and thus?

    Will never be answered by the ardant believers in Bible Literalism or in the "historical accuracy" of the Noah's Ark Myth. Wait and see.
     
  2. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    How long would it take eight people to feed two of everything living species on the planet? The answer is so stupidfing that I do not understand how people take it seriously.
     
  3. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    One thing they're doing now is to claim that it WASN'T every species. That somehow it was just ONE type of cow....that later sprang off into cattle, water buffalo, American bison, etc.

    Or it wasn't EVERY type of ape.....just chimps....which later became gorillas, orangutans, gibbons, etc.

    This is so they can atleast TRY to get the number of animals down to a more "manageable level"....but even that fails.

    1st because even doing that? There is no way they can claim hippos turned into rhinos....or elephants turned into camels.....or dogs turned into capybaras, especially in less than a 1000 years.

    And so you end up with many pairs of large mammals that result in an Ark packed to the brim, with barely room if you get rid of all the food and replacement hay and sawdust for urine and feces.



    2nd....it means they are ACCEPTING...evolution, if on a radically shortened time-frame.

    If they say "Lions on the Ark became Siberian tigers"....they are saying the lions evolved into a radically different species. Yet, their Creationist streak and denial of evolution tells them that there is no such thing as radical species change...."God made everything exactly as it is today, 6000 years ago".

    And once they accept even "rapid evolution"...how can they deny extremely long evolution? Even for Mankind?


    BTW, we've just opened the door for a subject change. They LOVE talking about evolution.....and won't discuss the OP if at all possible.
     
  4. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    well if were gonna be honest about it, we would say it was just a myth and never actually happened
     
  5. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why defenders of a faith such as this bother to try and scientifically justify ANYTHING.

    Once you have introduced an Omnipotent God into any discussion, one should abandon all pretense of having to abide by any scientific standards.
    It is kinda cute when they are so insecure in their faith that they feel the need to justify their beliefs in the face of Omnipotence.
     
  6. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But but but, I have a video!!!!!
     
  7. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    I grant the believers a chance to show their work. :)
     
  8. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    That question has always puzzled me.

    Why is it people who claim that their "faith" is so important.....seem insistant on "proving scientifically" that it is not a faith...but "fact".

    Coming up with various arguments that "history, facts, science and logic" support my faith....and thus indicating that that "faith" must be very weak indeed, if it has to be "proven" using those elements to others who don't share it...or even to themselves.

    Thus we see the "zoology science" of a tribal myth about a "world-wide flood, where every animal went onboard a 450 long boat for a year and survived."
     
  9. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps based on fact. Since there pre-exists similar stories, I wouldn't be surprised if the origin of the story was some poor farmer along the Euphrates that managed to get a few of his domestic livestock onto a raft during a flood, and in the repeated retelling (the god's were angry) over the centuries became the story of Noah.


    Its not like back in the day those peasants sitting around the campfire, listening to the "priest" or wandering storyteller tell the story, would have the knowledge to question the absurd impossibility of such a story.
     
  10. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you don't think that a God who created the universe can feed a few animals in a boat?

    lol
     
  11. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Funny. They oppose evolution so much, they come up with something absolutely retarded like chimps becoming orangutans.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You don't think a god that created the universe could just strike down all the sinners without coming up with an absolutely ridiculous story of fitting two of every animal on the planet (how did they get the polar bears?) on a 450ft. boat?

    You don't think a god capable of creating the universe could come up with a story that makes sense?

    LOL
     
  12. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    I get it! You are an athiest. So why do you need validation for your <non> belief? Just accept you don't believe and move on dude.
     
  13. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    I think a God that created the universe didn't need to send a flood.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Entertainment. Isn't that what most of these forums are for?
    Or gain knowledge, maybe there is something people have missed and are seeking answers?
    Why not explain the flood and how it all went down? Then others can see what they've been missing and can change their minds.
     
  14. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    First we would need to prove that God even exists let alone ever created a single thing or fed "a few animals in a boat".
     
  15. Finley99

    Finley99 New Member

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    It's all bull(*)(*)(*)(*) anyway. Anybody who believes that a flood which covered the entire earth to a level which covered all the mountains evaporated before everybody and everything on an ark starved to death is a numbskull.
     
  16. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    A nice fairy tale to tell your grandchildren.
     
  17. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Sad. Just plain sad. Oh, and pathetic too.

    Anyway, let all the atheists flock to this thread and complain about how God doesn't exist, while in the meantime, accept that the universe came into being magically by itself, and by random chance, we're all here from primordial soup. Lets also believe that this primordial soup, which took millions upon millions of years, morphed (Power Ranger Style) into life and gradually evolved like Pokemon into the beautiful humans we are today.

    LOL. Fairy tales are so very entertaining, aren't they?
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    not nearly as 'pathetic' as believing a giant invisible man in the sky just came into being, magically, and now watches people masturbate, when not finding car keys.
     
  19. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    seems the defenders of the literal TRUTH are not capable of answering some pretty straightforward questions.

    But then again, they never do.
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I've heard many Christians defend their position (and their god, presumably ... apparently he can't defend himself) via 'reason & logic', but the minute you ask a question they don't like they revert to 'it's a matter of faith'. In other words, they try to prove their god is real via science, but deny science the right to prove their god is real. It's very poor witnessing, I must say. You would think anyone who's genuinely concerned for the status of their god, would consider the implications of this sort of dishonesty. If I was their god, I'd prefer they admit it's ALL a matter of faith (ie, personal preference), and quit telling people there's logic and rational reason(s) behind it.
     
  21. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except that I am not an atheist, and I always saw the story of Noah and his ark, and the flood as pure myth, that just was created to teach about what happens when man is acting badly. That it might convince a tribe to treat others a little better, as well as acting morally, is the purpose of such myths, and of course to show a primitive people just how powerful their chosen god is.

    But the Hebrews borrowed the flood story, from an older story from the Epic of Gilgamesh, as they borrowed other stories to teach a lesson, or illustrate a point in their religion.

    "The story of a great flood that destroyed the earth was not unique to the Hebrews, who recorded it in the Bible. The Sumerians, who were earlier than the Hebrews, had their own version of a great flood. Read the Sumerian Flood Myth.

    The Flood Myth:

    The Sumerian hero Gilgamesh traveled the world in search of a way to cheat death. On one of his journeys, he came across an old man, Utnapishtim, who told Gilgamesh a story from centuries past. The gods brought a flood that swallowed the earth.

    The gods were angry at mankind so they sent a flood to destroy him. The god Ea, warned Utnapishtim and instructed him to build an enormous boat to save himself, his family, and "the seed of all living things." He does so, and the gods brought rain which caused the water to rise for many days. When the rains subsided, the boat landed on a mountain, and Utnapishtim set loose first a dove, then a swallow, and finally a raven, which found land. The god Ishtar, created the rainbow and placed it in the sky, as a reminder to the gods and a pledge to mankind that there would be no more floods. See the text Epic of Gilgamesh: Sumerian Flood Myth"

    http://www.historywiz.com/flood.htm

    And this is why one needs to have a decent education of history, when it comes to a rational understanding of the Bible, and the myths it contains. Yet is is only mostly the evangelical fundamentalists that lack the proper education. If you take the more educated denominations like the Anglican Church of England, which is the Episcopal church here, those people are educated well enough to understand the myths for what they are, and do not make the mistake that many americans do, who for some reason think fairy tales and myths really happened. Frankly, these people embarrass me. Few have really studied other ancient cultures and their myths, which were borrowed later on by the Hebrews. But if not for the discoveries in Mesopotamia, we would not know the flood story was theirs, first, and then borrowed by the Hebrews.
     
  22. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    You do realize there's over 500 cultures with Noah stories, right?
    Source: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=64
     
  23. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    You must take into account that the two of every animal idea is misconception. The bible says there was two of every unclean animal (ie pigs)
    and seven of every clean animal. So you have to take the extra population into account.

    Then there is the issue of needing to keep carnavores and their prey apart.

    There is no logical way to support the ark as really existing.

    The boat was 300 cubits (around 442 ft) long, 50 cubits (around 73 ft) wide, and 30 cubits (around 44 ft) tall.

    So, taking all three floors, it is safe to assume that it would have been divided evenly into 10 cubits (around 14 ft) for each floor.
     
  24. whatukno

    whatukno New Member

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    I like this theory.

    Noah wasn't just some poor shlub, he was a merchant around a small freshwater lake in what is now the black sea. some claim an earthquake happened (plausible in that area) and opened up a hole in the sea wall allowing waters from the Mediterranean to flood into the black sea area. He got his family and some livestock on a trading barge, and held out till everything calmed down, and he survived.

    Then after generations of retelling the tale, it got more and more expansive, and exaggerated more and more till it's the bs we see today.

    [video=youtube;y1vRWQx6LE0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1vRWQx6LE0[/video]

    Certainly would make more sense than a wood boat filled with two of EVERY animal on Earth.
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I think, if I were a Christian, that this public failure of adherents and clergy to answer even simple and very reasonable questions would have me really thinking hard about the value of my faith. There's only so far I could go on the mantra "they just don't understand ... it's all about the feels".
     

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