Greek Crisis Isn't Over Yet Greece & World Still Have Hard Decisions Ahead!

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by JimfromPennsylvania, Jul 24, 2015.

  1. JimfromPennsylvania

    JimfromPennsylvania Active Member Past Donor

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    In the run up to the July 5th Greek referendum on whether the Greek people should accept the terms of their international creditors I thought this is a no brainer decision the Greeks have to vote yes because too many of their creditors said the vote was actually a vote to stay in the Euro zone and the Greeks don't want to be tossed out of the Euro their currency, the drachma, will be of low value so their import purchasing power will be weak resulting in their standard of living being lousy! Shockingly, ordinary people throughout the world en masse said the Greek people should vote no because their debt burden was too heavy too onerous, these people publicly strongly called for debt relief for Greece! It's been a great development that the Greek Parliament on July 15th passed the governmental reforms mandated by the international community which allowed it to begin negotiations on an additional 86 billion Euro loan. However, the Greek people should not consider this crisis over by any means!

    The public narrative about the Greek situation seems to be the Greek parliament passed the mandated reforms so the country of Greece will get the 86 billion Euro loan and insofar as debt relief for the Greek people goes the international community will push out the payment dates and give low interest rates so all is well everyone can now turn their attention away from the Greek situation. This outcome is not right for the Greek people and not right by a long shot, the Greek nation's overall debt if this new loan is approved will be 416 billion euros there is no way a country of ten million people like Greece will ever be able to pay that debt off. This debt will act as an onerous weight on the Greek people for countless generations causing them to pay higher interest rates on their bonds and sapping inordinate amounts of precious government tax revenue to pay the interest on their national debt instead of needed programs and services for their people. It is not acceptable that the Greek government and people be told by the international community that we will do something for you later we know you will never be able to pay this debt. Wisdom dictates that in 2023 or probably later after the current loan negotiations when the big debts start coming due to the Eurozone Bailout Fund and other Eurozone countries , Greece will have full access to the world's sovereign debt market and the international community will expect Greece to use this market to get the monies to pay these creditors so Greece will be saddled with this huge oppressive national debt in the sovereign debt market that it will never be able to pay!

    For people that want to see the good thing happen here and not the bad thing on this critical matter for the Greeks they should be calling for the international community to give principal debt relief to Greece and a large amount otherwise the Greeks should voluntarily leave the Euro and permanently walk away from their debt unless it involves debt owned by Greek citizens or organizations prior to the exit or to the IMF because the Greeks may need the IMF later. This exit should happen with the blessing of many of the European Union countries whose majority of people have called for debt relief for Greece also these Eurozone countries should get together and force Germany and their allies to reform the Eurozone providing a mechanism for Eurozone countries that get into debt over their head to go to a Eurozone panel which operates by supermajority vote and receive a finding that their debt is unaffordable and as long as they have laws that provide for responsible government spending and regulation of their economy essentially equivalent to the majority of Eurozone countries they are empowered to unilaterally write down the principal of their debt to a level they can afford. That is a big part of this whole problem with the Greek debt the country of Greece was not permitted to cramdown the debt they owed to their bond holders to what they could afford they were forced to continue to borrow to pay their bondholders and to even get the consent of their private bond holders to haircut that debt and they had to borrow unaffordable amounts from the troika to pay these private and public sector bond holders. To be succinct, the Eurozone's regulations are terrible in regards to helping Eurozone countries that get into debt trouble these countries can't devalue their currency like countries that control their own currency can the Eurozone has to fix this deficiency and provide a relief route for these countries!

    These remarks are not a call for just European Union countries to step up and give Greek principal debt relief it is a call for the entire international community to give such debt relief. It is a focused call for the United States, Germany, China and to a lesser extent Japan to step up and put a lot of money on the table for debt relief for Greece; all these countries are culpable in this Greece problem all these countries benefit big-time from the current global economy and any country exercising due diligence as a responsible member of this economy could see Greece was getting in way over their head with their sovereign debt level and should have protested zealously that it be stopped! Frankly during this past two months I found it sickening the President of the United States Barack Obama and the Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew were contacting Eurozone leaders and chiding them to keep Greece in the Eurozone essentially wagging their finger at these leader to write the needed checks to keep Greece in the Eurozone when the United States was not putting anything on the table, IMF loans aren't anything, debt relief is anything because that is the only thing that will facilitate a good solution. The United States, Germany and China "each" should put at least $35 billion dollars on the table for debt relief for Greece.

    The United States should do this because it is culpable big-time in this problem. America's credit rating agencies never flagged this Greece sovereign debt problem until it was too late and they should have because Greece's debt levels were so high and so their regulator the American government was also at wrong for not policing these rating agencies adequately to get them to do this duty. America's big banks and financial institutions were willing to be a market for Greek bonds where any responsible leader in the financial industry knew that Greek's debt level was unsustainable but they stayed at the Greek bond party for as long as it lasted because of the trays of cash being served up to them for attending, their regulator the American government regulators should have flagged this problem before it became a major problem they did eventually but way too late if they had done it when they should have the market for Greece sovereign debt would have dried up and Greece would not have been able to get in so over their head so the American government is liable on that front! U.S. regulators have brought one, five and ten plus billion dollar sanctions against numerous banks and financial institutions for wrong doing during this period, the United States paying $35 billion dollars of debt relief to Greece as sanctions for its culpability in Greek's crushing debt problem is certainly fair in light of the nature of the American government's wrongdoing. The United States was one of the major culprits in saddling Greece with its current debt level it along with England, Germany, France and others wouldn't let Greece default on its bonds wouldn't let it unilaterally exchange outstanding bonds for lower principal bonds like it should have because that would have caused bank capital level problems for these countries banks many of their banks held significant levels of Greek bonds and it would have triggered credit default swap contract payouts that would have had an earthquake effect on financial institution industries in these countries which all were shaky at the time; these countries sacrificed the country of Greece for their own self interests and now it is time to make amends by putting a sizable amount of money on the table for Greek debt relief.

    Thirty-five billion dollars won't even be noticed in America's finances. This is probably the true cost for two years of the U.S. fight against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria if one considers the cost of the air sorties and the support apparatus for such sorties in the fight and the cost of all the equipment and weapons we're giving to our allies in both countries. America spent seventy billion dollar on the HAMP program to save homeowners from foreclosure where if truth be told that turned out largely to be just a windfall for America's financial institutions that ended up largely taking the money and not modifying most of the applicants mortgages this outcome was only reversed after DOJ and other regulators settlements with the big banks was initiated. America spent $50 billion on recovery from Super-storm Sandy, what will be the cost to recover from Super-storm Greece? In recent years America spends billions and billions every year to recover from floods, droughts and tornadoes! What will be the costs to settle the looming budget crisis for the 2016 budget? What goes around comes around not only for people but for countries too America should step up here and fulfill its responsibilities on the Greece problem!

    Germany should step-up with at least a $35 billion dollar check for Greece debt relief. Germany has long been the self-appointed leader of the Eurozone and as such they should have flagged this obvious problem early before Greece got completely in over their head with debt, they could have blocked Greece from increasing its debt level to unaffordable levels multiple ways, but they didn't want to be bothered because their economy was doing well and they didn't want to risk messing up this good thing they had going. Germany should not even have let the country of Greece in the Eurozone until they implemented governmental reforms to make Greece a small public sector economy the necessary type of economy to exists in the Eurozone but Germany wanted maximum support for a Eurozone economy because it offers Germany a lower value currency which suits their manufacturing based economy very well so they let Greece in. As mentioned earlier Germany was a coconspirator in forcing Greece not to default on its bond debt but take on debt from the troika which is unaffordable. Germany needs to make amends for all these wrongs and can begin the process by cutting this check for Greece!

    China should cut a $35 billion dollar check for Greece because they benefit big-time from the existence of the Eurozone if the eurozone did not exist many of the current eurozone countries would have a currency of low value and could not afford to buy Chinese products significantly hurting the China export based economy! The oppression the Greek people feel now and will in the future unless they get debt relief could and probably will eventually drive the Greek people to say this "isn't worth it" we are leaving the Eurozone and walking away from all our eurozone debt and this could have a contagion effect numerous other eurozone countries that have oppressive sovereign debt could likewise say this "isn't worth it" and do the same and the
    euro currency would collapse, resulting in this significant hit to China's exports! Remember the old Confucius saying "Pay me now or pay me more later!" maybe that wasn't Confusius but some unfeeling capitalist but it is still the truth in this unfeeling capitalist world we all live in!
     
    waltky and (deleted member) like this.
  2. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Mebbe home countries of refugees could put up the money?...
    :wink:
    ECB reveals capital hole in Greek banks as unpaid loans soar
    Sat Oct 31, 2015 - Greece's banks need to raise more than 14 billion euros ($16 billion) of extra capital to cover mounting unpaid loans, the European Central Bank said on Saturday as it announced the results of stress tests intended to rehabilitate Greek lenders.
     
  3. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    j(*)(*)(*)(*) Greece. They have stolen huge money out of the EU. they refuse to have any economic base other than agriculture and (overprices) tourism. They whine and behave like a third world nation demanding this and that.

    They should sell one of tehir Islands to the USA on a permemenat basis so the USA could have a permenant base in the eastern med
     
  4. Independant thinker

    Independant thinker Banned

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    Haha, stupid Greece.
     
  5. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Migrants demanding passage to western Europe...
    :omg:
    Police, migrants clash on Macedonia border; soldiers build fence
    Sat Nov 28, 2015 - Police in Macedonia fired tear gas and stun grenades at desperate migrants stranded for days at the Greek border and who are demanding passage to western Europe, as soldiers began erecting a metal fence to keep them out.
     
  6. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Greece gonna need more bailout money to support alla refugees...
    :omg:
    The Latest: UN: nearly 770,000 people enter Greece in 2015
    December 9, 2015 | The Latest in the influx of people into Europe. All times local:
    See also:

    UN urges Jordan to let 12,000 stranded Syrian refugees cross border
    Tuesday, Dec. 08, 2015 - The United Nations urged Jordan on Tuesday to allow in 12,000 Syrian refugees stranded at the border in deteriorating humanitarian conditions and offered to help reinforce security at registration points.
     
  7. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Tighter Greek border strands migrants...
    :omg:
    Migrant crisis: Thousands stranded in Greece as borders tighten
    Fri, 26 Feb 2016 - Large numbers of migrants and refugees are stuck in Greece as Balkan countries announce further restrictions on the number crossing their borders.
    See also:

    Thousands stranded as Greece becomes a migrant 'warehouse'
    Feb 27,`16 -- Greece is fast becoming the "warehouse of human beings" that its government has vowed not to allow.
     
  8. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's so much other crap going on I'd quite forgotten about Greece. But hey, who gives a (*)(*)(*)(*) about Greece anyway! [​IMG]
     
  9. Tommy Palven

    Tommy Palven Active Member Past Donor

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