why only usa has the sergeant major system?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by hkisdog, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. hkisdog

    hkisdog Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,466
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    why only usa has the sergeant major system?

    does USA have to keep it?
     
  2. Right is the way

    Right is the way Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,214
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What is your problem with it.
     
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,420
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What?

    Sorry, but this makes little to no sense at all.

    In the US, the Sergeant Major is both a rank (normally the top 1-2 enlisted ranks), as well as a position. You may see an E-7 or E-8 assigned as a unit "Sergeant Major", this is a position, and has nothing to do with the rank of the individual. Then you may have an E-8 "Sergeant Major" assigned to an administrative position, where they have no positional authority or title of "Sergeant Major".

    We acquired the rank/position from the British, where it was a position. Generally the senior person in the unit without a commission (which is different from the US, as we use non-sommissioned officers only).

    But your question really makes no sense, as it deals with a rank largely unique to the US. Might as well ask why no other military in the world uses a Feldwebel. Or why the Lieutenant General outranks a Major General, even though a Major outranks a Lieutenant (this dates back to 16th century when the rank was known as Sergeant Major General).
     
  4. SMDBill

    SMDBill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,715
    Likes Received:
    260
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Why wouldn't they keep it? Every service has a senior enlisted position, or a person who represents all enlisted personnel to the commanding officer. Navy has a Command Master Chief. What do you see wrong with it?
     
  5. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,690
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think the military will get rid of rank titles one day. An O-5 or an E-3 will just be an O-5 or an E-3, regardless of branch.

    It's confusing for some how a Navy captain and Army/Marine/Air Force captain are actually different ranks.
     
  6. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,271
    Likes Received:
    22,659
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Brits still have it as far as I know.
     
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,420
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why is that so hard?

    The vast majority in the service have absolutely no problem with that. We just call all of them "Sir" or Ma'am", and that is that.
     
  8. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    12,540
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    48
    What on earth do you have against it?
     
  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,026
    Likes Received:
    16,042
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The following is just an excerpt from the June 1947 issue of the " Marine Corps Gazette " Exhume the Gunnery Sergeant
    By LtCol Robert D. Heinl, Jr.



     
  10. MRogersNhood

    MRogersNhood Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2015
    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Is this e8 er..I'm not miltary.. :(
    However I am military-related in some fashion or other.
     
  11. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,420
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    E-9. E-8 is Master Sergeant-First Sergeant.

    However, in the Army, E-9 is Sergeant Major - Command Sergeant Major (which depends on if they are in an administrative or command position), or Master Gunnery Sergeant - Sergeant Major in the Marine Corps (same thing, one is administrative position, the other is a command position).

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A regimental sergeant major appointment is usually held by an army chief warrant officer in the British forces, near as I can recall. This applies to British commonwealth and former commonwealth nations also, for example Canada and Australia.
     
  13. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There is an obligation to salute officers of higher rank regardless of service branch. It's not that difficult to spend a little time familarizing yourself with the rank and insignia of all the U.S. armed forces. Where it gets tricky is knowing the rank and insignia of foreign militaries. Part of my duties on a particular assignment was transporting DVs (Distinguished Visitors); often times these would include foreign military personnel. A basic guide is, "when in doubt, salute." At worst, they may look at you strangely for saluting them if indeed it is not warranted. Of course in combat zones, you never want to salute...and away from that typically you only salute when outdoors and not under cover.

    There also various permutations of military protocol relating to salutes, that I'm not going to get into. Basically as the military is more and more about joint operations, it's important to know the ranks and insignia of all the service branches. As I say, it is not so complex that it requires a complete unification of all the ranks into a common structure.

    "When in doubt, salute."
     
  14. SMDBill

    SMDBill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,715
    Likes Received:
    260
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I don't think you'll see a day where the military removes rank titles. Navy titles differ from the other branches because, for example, a captain was the leader of a ship (ship's captain) and an admiral oversaw fleets or groups of ships. Smaller vessels were commanded by lower ranking officers, such as Commanders (O-5) or Lieutenant Commanders (O-4). The rank of captain in the Army, USMC or USAF is not appropriate for use in the Navy because it would confuse rank with command. The rank of O-3 (captain in the Army, USMC or USAF) would never command a navy ship, making the rank title confusing with traditional naval command titles.

    Those who need to understand the differences between naval (and Coast Guard) titles and other services' rank structures/titles learn them early in their service. The confusion factor is minimal and if you're ever in a military environment, you realize how quickly people adapt, even to foreign military ranks and structures. It's more appropriate to learn the differences than to expect the military to remove them to avoid confusion among those who are not stakeholders.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,420
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The older use of officer ranks in the Navy was highly based upon position and not actual rank. And it is largely fallen out of use, but can still be seen from time to time.

    By tradition, there is only one "Captain" aboard a ship, no matter what their rank was. A second "Captain" was at one time addressed as "Commodore", to honor their rank, yet still given the honor of the rank they held. And even a Lieutenant Commander was addressed as "Captain" abord their own ship.

    If an O-3 of another branch was aboard, traditionally they were called "Major", so they would not be demoted by being addressed as "Lieutenant", instead they were promoted a single rank by title. But other then the Navy, all other branches used the same officer rank titles.

    The Navy is a bit confusing to most, since they rarely actually use rank for those E-1 through E-6. They use "ratings", which is not only their rank but job title also. HM, HN, QM, and the like. Call a sailor by his rank and you often get a puzzled look from them, since they rarely use them themselves.

    But this is rarely a problem, since other then Navy and Marines, most will rarely if ever deal with individuals of another branch. Biggest thing for most soldiers to learn when dealing with their Marine counterparts is simply to use their entire rank. "Sergeant" may be appropriate in the Army when dealing eith an E-6, but a Marine Staff Sergeant might jump down your throat if you do that, since their tradition requires the use of the entire rank.

    But once again, these are all traditions. And each of the services is fiercly proud of their heritage and traditions. I do not think that they will ever get rid of them, ever. Not even the Soviets tried to do that.
     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,494
    Likes Received:
    2,420
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    This is so true.

    The general rule is "If it shines, salute". Officer ranks are very easy to tell from those of enlisted. All normally wear Bars or Stars, other then navy in their dress uniforms with the rings on the lower arms. Once again, very different then the uniforms of enlisted. In fact, the Navy uses completely different uniforms for officers and enlisted, also making them easy to tell apart.

    Call a Navy Lieutenant "Captain", and they will just return the greeting, and maybe correct you. Same if you call a Navy Captain "Colonel". And a Warrant Officer is a Warrant, no matter what branch of service (you just address them as Sir or Ma'am anyways, or "Chief", I have never gone "Excuse me Chief Warrant Officer Smith").

    The differences between Army and Marines is slight, only a couple of ranks are different and most will recognize that at least you are trying even if you get the details wrong (like calling a Sergeant First Class "Gunny"). And to be honest, the only branch I ever had problems with was the Air Force enlisted ranks. I simply call any without a rocker "Airman", with a rocker "Sergeant", and with the chevrons on the top "Master Sergeant". I have never had one call me out on that, probably recognizing that I was at least trying to get it right, and had at least some familiarity with their rank system.

    But call them a Sergeant Major, Command Chief Master Sergeant, or Master Chief Petty Officer, all branches have a "Senior Enlisted" grade - no matter what it is called. And all are given the respect deserved, by other enlisted and officers alike. Only by going to some kind of rankless system would that ever change, and that only happens in Science Fiction universes like Star Trek, where apparently everybody is an officer and goes through the academy.
     
  17. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "Commodore is a naval rank used in many navies that is superior to a navy captain, but below a rear admiral. Non-English-speaking nations often use the rank of flotilla admiral or counter admiral or senior captain as an equivalent, although the latter may also correspond to rear admiral.

    Traditionally, "commodore" is the title for any officer assigned to command more than one ship at a time, even temporarily, much as "captain" is the traditional title for the commanding officer of a single ship even if the officer's official title in the service is a lower rank. As an official rank, a commodore typically commands a flotilla or squadron of ships as part of a larger task force or naval fleet commanded by an admiral.

    It is often regarded as a one-star rank with a NATO code of OF-6 (which is known in the U.S. as "rear admiral (lower half)"), but whether it is regarded as a flag rank varies between countries.[1]

    It is sometimes abbreviated: as "Cdre" in British Royal Navy, "CDRE" in the US Navy, "Cmdre" in the Royal Canadian Navy, "COMO" in the Spanish Navy and in the some navies speaking the Spanish language, or "CMDE" as used in the Indian Navy or in some other Navies.[2]" - Wiki

    Commodore was a rank also given to the civilian in charge of a merchant ship convoy during WW2. Think of it as a civilian "admiral" when used as such.
     
  18. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,690
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I used to get confused. Maybe I'm just retarded.
     

Share This Page