Sephardic Jews apply for Spanish citizenship

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Heinrich, Sep 30, 2015.

  1. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    4,500 descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain after the reconquest by the Catholic Monarchs in the 15th century have applied to exercise their right of return to their Spanish homeland under a new law passed this year.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.678284
    In Spain is the old expression, Las cosas de palacio van despacio. (The affairs of the palace go slowly.) But 500 years!

    [​IMG]
    Yemeni Sephardic boys in Egypt. Most applications for Spanish citizenship come from North Africa, Turkey, and Venezuela.
     
  2. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    I was seriously thinking of doing the same since my ancestors were Judios expelled under the Inquisition. This because of the lack of health care. But now that we have ACA, I am covered by medical insurance and can stay in the USA covered for all or most of my expenses.

    As it is, I'm too old to travel but would love to have seen Segovia (my ancestral home), Galicia, Andalucia, Catalonia, and the Canary Islands. Gosh, what an incredibly beautiful country Spain is - this despite all the tragedies that have taken place there.

    Maybe in another life time ...
     
  3. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Oh, by the way, Judios Sefardí and Yemeni Jews are two different groups of people. Sefardic Jews were transposed to Spain about the 2d century BC. Yemenis have always been in that country since around 1400BC and are considered Mizrahim.

    The photo you showed are of Mizrahi children, not Sephardic.
     
  4. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    A recent genetic study found that about 20% of the Spanish people actually have Sephardic Jewish ancestry, while 11% bear North African DNA haplogroups, which shows that the impact of North African and Sephardic Jewish contributions to the Spanish gene pool is immense. After the Muslim Berbers forced Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, the Christians expelled Jews and Muslims or forced both to convert in retaliation. It shows that during the period of religious intolerance, there was a high level of religious conversion to assume a Christian identity en masse.

     
  5. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    Just so you know, Mizrahi Jews generally characterize themselves as Sephardi, because they follow the traditions of Sephardic Judaism (although with some differences among the minhagim of the particular communities).
     
  6. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Some do because there was some immigration to the ME by Sefardim. But I would not say that they generally identify themselves in that manner as they are descended of different clans.

    I grew up in Brooklyn, NY (as New Yorkers say, Brooklyn is the real Jewish capitol of the world) and knew Judios of every stripe and never came across people who made that type of characterization. But perhaps that's just my experience.
     
  7. Sab

    Sab Active Member

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    I could do with an extra passport and I am a descendent of Sephardic Jews from Spain
     
  8. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    You and possibly millions more. Yesterday, Spain granted citizenship to 4,302 people whose Jewish ancestors fled after being told in 1492 to convert to Catholicism or go into exile. "Spain’s Federation of Jewish Communities praised the mass naturalizations, adding that most applicants were from Morocco, Turkey and Venezuela." It is believed that up to 3.5 million people around the world are thought to have Sephardic Jewish ancestry. The new Spanish citizens will be able to take-up residence and work in any of the 28 member states of the European Union.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/spain-expedites-citizenship-for-thousands-of-sephardic-jews/
    It can be assumed, with the passage of five centuries, the spirits of the Catholic Monarchs, Fernando and Ysabel, are smiling in benevolent approval as they lie in Royal Chapel at Granada.

    [​IMG]
    Coffins of Fernando and Ysabel in the Royal Chapel at Granada
     
  9. Paksenarrion

    Paksenarrion New Member

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    As an Ashkenazi Jew and a British citizen I already have an automatic right to live and work in Spain :p
     
  10. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Many Berbers converted to Judaism and helped the Muslims conquer Spain.

    There's also a Jewish warrior queen of the Berbers.. I think her name was Queen Kadima.
     
  11. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Berbers and warrior Queen:


    In their language the Berbers call themselves Amazeigh - Amazeigh means sons or children of the Amazons.
     
  12. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    3.5 million?

    That number is FAR too low. The Bible tells us the numbers would be as high as the grains of sand in the sea.

    Take a look at the names of Sefardim persecuted and exiled under the Inquisition:


    http://www.sephardim.com/search.shtml



    Both of my parents family names are listed there. In fact you will find those names all over Spain, parts of Northern Africa, the Caribbean, Latin America, the Philippines, and the USA. Add the populations of these peoples and you will have well about 500 million thereby fulfilling the Bible's prophecy that Abraham's children will number as many as the grains of sand in the sea.
     
  13. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    You are being fanciful, Mr_Truth and all mixed-up with Biblicism.
    The Sephardic Jews who formed a distinctive faith community in the Iberian Peninsula were never large in number. After the Alhambra Decree of 1492 by the Catholic Monarchs, Fernando and Ysabel, ordering the expulsion of Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by 31 July, of that year, there were mass conversions from Judaism to Catholicism. These conversos or marranos would have Jewish names but would no longer be Jews. It is estimated that 20% of Spanish Catholics nowadays have some genetic relationship to these conversos. The remnant who went into exile was considerably smaller than the population of Sephardic Jews before 1492 and it is their descendants who qualify for Spanish citizenship today, provided they can prove it of course.

    You seem to be broadening the application of Sephardim to include other Eastern Jews who have no genealogical roots in the Jewish communities of Iberia but have adopted a Sephardic style of liturgy and Sephardic law and customs imparted to them by the Iberian Jewish exiles over the course of the last few centuries. These do not meet the definition of Sephardic Jews according narrower ethnic criterion of the new Spanish law. In Hebrew, the term Sephardim Tehorim (ספרדים טהורים, literally "Pure Sephardim") is used to distinguish Sephardim proper "who trace their lineage back to the Iberian/Spanish population" from Sephardim in the broader religious sense. ( Mintz, Alan L. "The Boom in Contemporary Israeli Fiction." University Press of New England: Hanover, NH. 1997. p115) It is unlikely, therefore, that the "Sephardic" boys from Yemen whose picture I posted at the beginning of this topic would qualify for Spanish citizenship. Awww, so sorry.
     
  14. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    That is totally incorrect. Had you troubled yourself to read my earlier posts on the subject you would know that I am well acquainted with the differences between those of Sefardic ancestry and those of Askenazim ancestry - see Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe. Note that I did not even mention the latter in the post you quoted.


    Now read Cecil Roth's Marranos in which he discusses how as many as 300,000-500,000 Judios went into exile. The book is of particular interest to me as one of my ancestors is mentioned in the book.

    European populations have multiplied in huge numbers over the centuries. As an example, England's population was only about 4 million in the year 1600. Today, it's about 55 million. Germany's population in 1600 was about 4 to 5 million. Today it is over 83 million. Take all of Europe's population in 1600 as compared to today and you will see that it grew tremendously. It stands to reason that 300,000 to 500,000 of Sefardim (Roth's estimate) would expand into the millions that I mentioned previously.
     
  15. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    I'm sorry; I cannot help you any further. You appear to have your mind made up.
     
  16. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Your "help" is not necessary as I am likely more familiar with the subject than you are.
     
  17. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    The majority of the descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain no longer observe the Jewish faith. Already this month 4,302 have applied for Spanish citizenship. Now, all of a sudden, Israelis are showing an interest in these people, perhaps shamed by the welcome they are receiving from the Spanish. These Israelis want the new Spanish citizens to be loyal, not so much to their new country but to Israel and to be groomed as allies of the Jewish state.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-caucus-aims-to-reconnect-with-descendants-of-sephardi-jews/
    It is to be hoped that the new Spanish citizens will avoid the poison of Zionism and instead with one chorus exclaim, ¡Arriva España! ¡Viva el Rey!

    [​IMG]
    His Majesty King Felipe VI of Spain welcomes Shlomo Moshe Amar, Great Rabbi of Jerusalem Sephardic communities
     
  18. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    prove it
     
  19. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    It says so in The Times of Israel article which I cited.
     
  20. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    no, it does not
     
  21. Heinrich

    Heinrich Active Member

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    "In an August interview, Perry told The Times of Israel that, despite concerns about Jewish law, he 'dreams to create a law similar to the Spanish and Portuguese law for bnei anusim [descendants of Sephardi Jews, who are largely no longer Jewish in practice].'"
     

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