Is it moral for God to punish us?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greatest I am, Nov 6, 2015.

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  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Is it moral for God to punish us?

    Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

    We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

    For example.
    God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

    Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

    Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

    Do you agree?

    If not, why not?

    Regards
    DL
     
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't see why it'd have to be. If God is the author of morality, then he can decide that the punishments are not immoral. This line of argument seems to presuppose a morality. While I agree with that morality, it doesn't take a great theologian to figure out that if you don't presuppose it, the points fall.
     
  3. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Any God who demands that I follow their will without making themself and their will unavoidably known to me while condemning me to hell for not following their will would be an immoral God that I would have nothing but contempt for.
     
  4. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Morality does not apply to God because it would mean there is something greater than Him and I'd that were true He would not be a God.

    Yes God created sin and evil but He had to in order for Him to show His grace to us. He could have created a world where everything simply loved Him but what is the point of that when it's not real. This is why God gave us free will.

    Yes He may know the outcomes but you and I do not. It is our willing acceptance of His grace which will bring us to Heaven.
     
  5. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    So what you are basically saying is God is an egomaniac who needed to create people who would worship him to bolster his apparently fragile ego. And when his creations fail do do what they were created to do he punishes them for eternity.
     
  6. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    That's already not real. The people who believe in it believe they'll go to hell if they don't do what god wants. So what choice do they really have? Those who don't believe, or believe the wrong thing, are being left out based upon being born in the wrong family or not having sufficient evidence. If I were to assume god exists and god is benevolent, then I would have to conclude that things don't work like Christians think they do.
     
  7. haribol

    haribol New Member

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    It is totally immoral if God or any design God has made, punishes his creatures. If God is really powerful God could stop all wars and could convert this hellish world into a paradise of happiness and blessings. But given what we come across in every walk of life God is brutal, ruthless. The idea of freewill is nonsensical if one believes in God"s design. If God can create a world he can do anything to make people happy. God permeates all, it is said. If this is so God can do anything to shape or condition the mind of man. The idea of freewill is a conspiracy and if a person do even a crime under a circumstance like he is starved or wronged he is not accountable for what he does but the situation that compels is, for instance the poverty one is in forces him to commit the crime.
     
  8. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    God did not need to create us.

    Our worship does not elevate him and he is secure. He wasn't lonely because he always had Jesus and the Holy Spirit with him, they are eternal also.

    God created is out of pure love, because he wanted us to exist for ourselves. And because of this he also created a hell but he does not send anyone there, we choose that path ourselves. If you are born again you will escape judgement but like everything else in life, choices have consequences. God does not want anyone to go to hell and he is holding out his hand to pull you out of there but if you will not take it then you will fall.
     
  9. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    People come to God from all different places. I was a hardcore atheist for 20 years and I could shut down almost any Christian in a debate but I also realized that all my facts were missing something.

    So I asked God himself to prove to me he is real. What happened is personal and only relevant to me, but he answered my prayer in spades.
     
  10. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    If God does not live up to my standards God gets judged as a negative. If God says that killing is wrong yet kills others then God is also a hypocrite. But here is the thing, all who speak of God speak from a position of ignorance as all we have is the word of man written in ancient tomes. To follow ancient tomes is to follow the will of man not God.
     
  11. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You putting yourself as an equal to God means that there is probably little chance you are open to a discussion. I am sorry you have so much anger and hate inside.

    It's ironic though, the one thing that could fix that is the one thing you choose to deny.
     
  12. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I do not see myself as being lesser, greater, nor equal to God as such finite measurements require an empirical base to measure against which is impossible as God is a theological intangible that may or may not even exist. And even if God does exist said deity may not be anything even remotely close to how humanity envisions him/her/it.

    Feel sorry all you like but it is a wasted effort as I have no hate nor anger inside for God. How you judge me says more about you than me.

    Spoken from a position of ignorance. I believe in God. Why you choose to continue to make innacurate assumptions of me remains a mystery. Creating your own reality does not make it my reality.
     
  13. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    When you deal with an omniscient God [Who is also omnipotent] you have to deal with the paradox of the conflict between free will and predestination.

    If God knows all ... why do we live? Actually, despite I'm Protestant, I'm not so tuned on the conceptualization of predestination. I tend to think that God limits His omniscience [He's omnipotent, this means that He can decide to limit His omnipotence and His omniscience as well, this point is pivotal and usually dodged by whom wants to reject the idea of a Perfect God].

    The Scriptures say that God is similar to us, so that He is not a rational machine, but a being with emotions [so, incredible!, He is also "irrational" in the human sense]. We can like this or not, but this is how He describes Himself.
     
  14. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    However it is that I got a mind, and a sense of moral right and moral wrong, I intend to use them. I will not abrogate the responsibility I have acquired by virtue of my humanity, to discern between morally right behavior and morally wrong behavior to another being, nor will I neglect my duties secondary to that discernment. If any God thought I might acquiesce to morally suspect or compromised orders on his authority, he miscalculated.

    His 'word' may offer greater wisdom, and may offer a more profound understanding than my own imagination had heretofore envisioned of moral conduct, but that 'word' is going to have to be very persuasive indeed, if I am to kill, or torture, steal or hurt in his name, or endorse/ excuse/ignore similar outrageous or repugnant conduct for a cause, his 'teachers' or interpreters declare.

    If a moral choice he wants me to make, does not make secular sense to me, I am not going there, and he can bloody well blame himself for giving me the gift of reason and a sense of empathy not inherently available to dogs, birds, fish or snails.

    Assuming God gave birds wings so they could fly, then they should fly! Assuming he gave us a the framework and instincts of a moral compass,, we should be looking at the needle, when we sail or walk. If his 'word' says south is north when our compass points differently, we better trust our own eyes and look for another version of the 'word' that does not.
     
  15. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you believe in God then what exactly is the issue you would like to discuss? Having been an atheist for 20 some years but also studying the bible as well as other texts from cover to cover perhaps I could give you a unique perspective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Excellent post and although I may not agree with it, it was definitely an A+
     
  16. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Who wrote the Bible and the other texts? If the answer is man then I argue to base a belief system upon those books is to follow man, not God.
     
  17. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did you expect God to float down a text from Heaven or something?
     
  18. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I would expect that He make His presence and will inescapably known to all humanity.
     
  19. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He did and it was recorded. Are you saying you want this to be a bi-monthly event or something?
     
  20. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Is the above opinion or fact? If it is a fact what evidence do you have to support the claim?
     
  21. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Your standards? Why should God live up to the standards of an imperfect and feeble human?
     
  22. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    A better question is why should I live up to the standards of fallible man as it was man who wrote the Quran?
     
  23. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    You aren't expected to do so unless you know that the Qur'an is the actual the word of God.

    Since you think the Qur'an was written by the Prophet (who was illiterate), it's understandable why wouldn't want live up to God's supposed standards.
     
  24. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    You speak with conviction but as I do not see you as an authority of the subject I take what you say as opinion... which by the way is all I have.
     
  25. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Not so. It is an Islamic truism among scholars that anyone who continuously studies Islam will eventually come to the conclusion that it is the truth.

    And since there are different degrees of disbelief in Islam, I say can say with certainty that you are an unbeliever out of ignorance. Others include disbelief out to arrogance, to disbelief out of hypocrisy:

    http://sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/87-types-of-kufr-disbelief
     
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